Obligation to return deposit if tenant moving out without notice

Hannaho · 24-01-2023 3:10pm #1

I am renting out rooms in a property. I am selling it and asked the Tenants if they would like to stay until June - students - as originally planned, or would they like to move out before that in April when college finishes. I agreed that I would not have viewings until they moved out. They agreed to stay, but then one week later stated they wanted to move out immediately, and requested full return of their deposit. They said that Threshold, said that there are no contractual obligations for licensee and that they are entitled to full return of deposit if the move out. This will leave me out of pocket as the bills are included in the rent. I offered half of the deposit to be returned as a goodwill gesture for moving out with one week's notice. The rent is paid monthly, and the original email to them when moving in was that the room was to be available to them until June. I agreed not to change this if they still wanted same. Where do I stand with this?

dennyk · 24-01-2023 3:22pm

Do you live in the property? If so, they are indeed licensees, not tenants, and the rules are very different. Licensees are not obligated to give any advance notice of termination unless their license agreement stipulates one, so you can't withhold their security deposit on that basis. What does your written agreement with your licensees say on the matter?

If you fail to return the deposit, the RTB won't help them, since they're licensees, but Threshold will probably point them to small claims court to recover their deposit, so you'll then have that situation to deal with on top of trying to sell your property.

Mrs OBumble · 24-01-2023 3:26pm

How will you be our of pocket? If they're not there, then they aren't using electricity etc.

If there's no damage, and they've paid for the time they were there, then give them the deposit and be thankful they found somewhere to move to.

Hannaho · 24-01-2023 3:56pm

The licence agreement says a month's notice.

Dial Hard · 24-01-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151271#Comment_120151271

Not worth the paper it's printed on if they're truly licensees.

pc7 · 24-01-2023 4:33pm

Do you live in the property?

Xterminator · 24-01-2023 4:50pm

if you live there this person is not a tenant. did you& they sign anything when they moved in? unless you have explicit grounds for keeping the rent then you should return it.

EG pursuant to your agreement signed on the date of XXX or email on date XXX where they agreed to give 1 months notice. If its all verbal give them their money back. even if you have such an agreement you should return 1/4 of the deposit for 1 weeks notice.

herbalplants · 24-01-2023 5:15pm

Give them their deposit back. They are students, deposit is a lot of money for them. What exactly bills will you be out of pocket? Sure if they were not living there, you would have to pay all by yourself.

Hannaho · 24-01-2023 5:16pm

I keep a room for myself in the house. The bills are in my name and included in the rent. The written agreement stated one month's notice and return of deposit if nothing broken, and that bills were included in rent. I am happy to return 50% deposit.

herbalplants · 24-01-2023 5:27pm

But why return just 50%. Where is the logic in this? Perhaps do some estimate on the bills. You keep a room in the house so add yourself for a share of the bills standing charges.

You should be delighted that they are looking to go and you be able to sell with no issues. Be greatful rather than argue with students?

Data Analyst · 24-01-2023 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151720#Comment_120151720

Do you actually live at that address or just not renting out 1 room to make it look like you live there

Hannaho · 24-01-2023 6:27pm

There is no rent a room relief claimed.it is noy my partner. I rent out 2 rooms.

blackbox · 24-01-2023 6:36pm

If they have paid rent for all of the time they lived there, I can't see any justification for withholding any part of the deposit.

Why would they pay for any services they haven't used?

Jim_Hodge · 24-01-2023 6:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151720#Comment_120151720

You have no right to hold the deposit at all. They are not tenants and any agreement has no basis in law, as a result. The bills are your bills, not theirs. I'm sure you're happy to keep half the deposit but it's a deplorable thing to do. You were moving them out anyway. Very bad form on your part to withhold any deposit. Hopefully they'll get decent advice and pursue you for the full deposit returned.

mct1 · 24-01-2023 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058281063/obligation-to-return-deposit-if-tenant-moving-out-without-notice

You can tell them they're wrong about what Threshold says. Their website states that even though the licensee cannot rely on tenancy legislation,

"We recommend that both you (the licensee) and the homeowner (the licensor) still draft an agreement in writing covering the key issues of the rental agreement – deposit, rent, bills, house rules and how either party may end the letting – which can be referred to if a dispute arises."

They also say that if the deposit is unfairly retained, the smalls claims court is an option.

So if the students did in fact sign a written agreement to give a month's notice it appears that you can legitimately withhold a proportion of the deposit. If the students didn't actually sign this then maybe return the full deposit.

It seems that you were trying to be fair with the June and April options, and maybe you also mentioned to the students that you were selling, but unfortunately all that may have given them the impression that you didn't mind when they moved out one way or another.

Maybe though it's time to compromise, for your own peace of mind if nothing else. Keep a week's worth of the deposit and return the rest. Tell them they are very lucky this time and you hope they've learned a lesson for the future. Sell the house and move on!

Marcusm · 24-01-2023 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058281063/obligation-to-return-deposit-if-tenant-moving-out-without-notice

You don’t live in the property by your own admission meaning that it does not fall outside the ambit of RTA 2004 meaning that you have served an invalid termination notice which they don’t need to abide by. You want the property to sell it, if you have any cop on you would let them leave now and return the full deposit or you’ll likely risk them becoming aware of their rights and simply refusing to leave and stop paying rent.

believing that “keeping a room in the house” means that it falls outside tenancy protection is not only farcical but contemptible.

User142 · 24-01-2023 8:37pm

You have to be joking. If you want a simple life, give the students back their money. You "kept a room" and in the house and put the bill in your name, all the bills are on you.... sure youre the only one using the utilities.

Madeoface · 24-01-2023 9:08pm

Looks like you are trying to outwit your obligations as a landlord by pretending to keep a room in the house when it's clearly not ur PPR from other posts. Is it registered with the RTB even? Revenue declared?

Pay the kids their deposit and don't be so miserable. Cos if you ain't declaring those students could land u right in it.

Wildly Boaring · 24-01-2023 9:15pm

All these students need to do is find the right person and you'll be paying them to leave

amdublin · 24-01-2023 9:45pm

Seriously. Stop being irrational and stingey. Give the deposit back and sell your house

thomas 123 · 25-01-2023 12:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151720#Comment_120151720

Return the full deposit for the love of god.

dennyk · 25-01-2023 12:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151720#Comment_120151720

Return their full deposit and be happy that they are leaving without any sort of fuss. You've dodged a bullet here, as if they wanted to stay in the property, they might have discovered that there's a strong possibility that they are tenants rather than licensees, and then you could have been months or years getting them out. If you try to push back on them leaving early or you threaten to withhold their deposits, there's a very real risk they will get onto Threshold again or go to the RTB (especially if they lose whatever alternative accommodations they've evidently secured for themselves in the meantime) and it's going to come to light that you aren't living in the property with them, and then it's not going to go well for you.

CrazyEric · 25-01-2023 4:19pm

Why would they be licensees instead of Tenants? If the Landlord doesn't actually live at the property, and the Students can prove that, then are they not tenants regardless of what the Landlord says?

I always thought a Licensee had to give a months notice if the rent was monthly? It is no wonder Landlords like this are selling up and getting out of the rental business.

pc7 · 25-01-2023 4:28pm

This person is trying to pull a fast one, keeping a 'room' and living elsewhere all under the pretense to make the licencees is a dodge pure and simple. Its carry on like this that gives landlords a bad name. They should give back the deposits and be happy they haven't been reported end of.

FedoraTheAura · 25-01-2023 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156461#Comment_120156461

It sounds like she has made out that they are licensees and not tenants, probably for tax purposes, which she will hopefully be reported for. If they prove prove that, she will have a much harder time of it and be fined accordingly.

It is no wonder people have such a bad attitude towards landlords when you have some acting like this.

kabakuyu · 25-01-2023 4:39pm

Return the deposit and consider yourself lucky.

thomas 123 · 25-01-2023 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156461#Comment_120156461

Is a deposit calculated in as part of the profit?

They have done no damage. They know that they needed to find a new place - they found one luckily. The LL is not losing out on income as they are not having another tenant since the end goal was for them to move out anyway.

Donald Trump · 25-01-2023 4:49pm

Big difference as regards CGT depending on whether it is a PPR or not.

Not to mention the 14k tax free income under reant-a-room relief for qualifying homeowners

CrazyEric · 25-01-2023 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156536#Comment_120156536

If the renter took a License instead of a tenancy and signed the agreement then what is the issue? I presume that being a licensee has some benefits for the renter otherwise why would they take it? No utilities and a reduced rental period perhaps?

Charlie3030 · 25-01-2023 8:41pm

Can anyone tell me why they would be tenants and not licensees when they are only renting the rooms? I can see from a tax point of view that there might be a differences, but the contract can not suddenly be different because of this. I see fairly often that ppl are renting out e.g. three rooms in the house, to three different people, without living there (daft: owner occupied "no"). It is impossible that all three would be tenants, as that would be completely impossible to handle.

I also think you should pay back the deposit. I have had lodgers in the past, after four great experiences (students as well as grown ups), I had one that made my life really miserable, so I will never have one again. Your students seem to have done nothing wrong so be the better person and give them their money back.

Caranica · 25-01-2023 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120157205#Comment_120157205

You can't contract away your rights

keithb93 · 25-01-2023 10:49pm

Give them their deposits in full. People like you are the reason tenants stop paying rent for the last month. I’m in a similar situation but as the tenant. We had to leave before the notice as it’s so difficult to find other accommodation and you have to take it as soon as it becomes available. If my landlord tries to keep my deposit, I’ll drag him through court for it.

The Spider · 26-01-2023 1:17am

I’m a landlord, but Jesus if I was the tenants in this situation I just wouldn’t pay the last months rent, Christ almighty, you’re out of pocket, you’re out of pocket my hole, you’re just being a greedy f***ker. Your carry on gives the rest of us a bad name.

The DayDream · 26-01-2023 1:30am

FYI a LL tried this with me when I was in college, tried to withold the entire deposit for 'cleaning fees'. When we had scrubbed the place through and through including the oven which was minging when we got there. When we put down an area rug to cover a pre existing stain on the ancient carpeting, the landlord tried to say that stain was never there when we moved in... He never saw it because we covered it with our own rug!

Went to court got it all back plus 1200 quid for my troubles. And he was put on a list in the student union of 'dodgy landlords to avoid'.

And that was the 3rd landlord in a row tried to keep either all or a portion of a deposit for some BS reason. After that I never paid the last months rent anywhere or bothered trying to clean the place when I left.

I've met more sound guards than I have sound landlords and that's saying something.

Graces7 · 26-01-2023 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120158938#Comment_120158938

Makes me so sad. I had all this with some landlords. "left the place dirty"... when I had taken uo the rug in ine room to find a thick layer of filth... and when there had been flooding due to his negligence and thrree inches of water in the main room.. and I had scrubbed the cupboards out. that I had left the place dirty...

VERY glad to be with the council now

ted1 · 30-01-2023 12:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151720#Comment_120151720

When you say you keep a room there, that

means nothing with regard rent a room relief. Unless you are living there and it’s your PPR then you are liable for tax

MrsTeaDrinker09 · 03-02-2023 4:02pm

Do you have a written and signed contract? If not, they're a licensee and you are required to give them their money back. If the student has been in consultation with threshold, they are already ahead of you and are aware of their rights. Return the money.

Furthermore, I hope you have them signed up on the RTB so they can claim their tax back. Don't try steal money from students when you're in a privileged position to be able to rent rooms.

_H80_GHT · 03-02-2023 5:52pm

I'd like to offer the OP some advice. I advise you not to steal money from students. It may sound crazy but give them back their own money. Some people might view you as a thief. Crazy, I know.

Exiled1 · 03-02-2023 6:10pm

Yours is appalling behaviour. Give them back THEIR money.

Caranica · 03-02-2023 8:16pm

This isn't a straight forward let, the OP has posted about issues before.

walterking · 03-02-2023 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151720#Comment_120151720

So you are renting under rent a room rules and getting tax free rent and despite these people not bothering you about your tax evasion and your substantial profitable rent, you want to keep their deposit too after it was your suggestion that they could leave early.

If this gets investigated someone will cop on about your tax evasion and the deposit will be the least you will be worried about.

CrazyEric · 07-02-2023 12:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197884#Comment_120197884

I have to be missing something in this...…

The tenant and Landlord agreed to rent until June, As the tenant is a student, it would probably suit him/her to leave in April, but probably had to take the room till June because it was the only way to get accommodation for the school year.

Landlord proposes to allow tenant to finish rental in April with no loss of deposit as Landlords circumstances have changed but June still works for Landlord.

Tenant proposes leaving now with no loss of deposit and Landlord feels aggrieved because they will lose February, March and April rent so proposes keeping half deposit

I am not a Landlord but cannot understand why there is so much hate for this Landlord..... it seems reasonable to me..... it is a business negotiation, nothing more or less.

Can a tenant just up and leave whenever they feel like it regardless of contract???

07-02-2023 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197941#Comment_120197941

Op posted that no tax relief is being claimed.

”There is no rent a room relief claimed.it is noy my partner. I rent out 2 rooms.”

Op, it is highly questionable whether a licensee relationship exists as you do not seem to live there, the person/people renting could claim to be tenants and your problems would get exponentially worse if they refuse to leave. So best to pay back the deposit in full, put your house on the market now and move on. Tenants/licensees leaving early is far preferable to them leaving late.

squidgainz · 07-02-2023 9:53am

And this is the reason why a lot of renters do not pay their last month's rent. The safest way to go.

07-02-2023 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210267#Comment_120210267

Also the reason why it is so important to get a reference from/speak to previous landlords.

squidgainz · 07-02-2023 10:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210280#Comment_120210280

Why would renters pay their last month's rent if they know they haven't damaged the property , just way too risky. Although if they've had a landlord that has been a good communicator, quickly fixing things etc then it's probably safe enough to pay it and wait for your deposit.

07-02-2023 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210292#Comment_120210292

• Legally required to.

• No hope of getting a reference, which can hinder getting a new rental in a market where demand outstrips supply.

• Tenants may not want to recognise or admit they have in fact caused damage to the property so the LL may be justified in retaining part or all of the deposit. The tenant has the option of raising a dispute with the RTB to recover the deposit, the licensee can go to the SCC, so there is a better than average chance that the deposit will be recovered. If you haven’t paid your last months rent, the advantage shifts to the LL who can raise a dispute in the RTB If a prospective LL sees that, a suspected murderer has a better chance of getting a new rental.

squidgainz · 07-02-2023 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211268#Comment_120211268

References are frequently made up . My advice to all you renter's out there would be to leave your deposit as last month's rent. By far the safest option as we can see from this thread.

07-02-2023 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211296#Comment_120211296

Your advice is to act contrary to tenancy legislation, that is never good nor smart advice.

Only idiot LL’s don’t check references by contacting the previous LL, only an idiot would think that someone couldn’t spot a bluffer when they ask about renting.

just_a_gurl · 07-02-2023 4:39pm

exclusive occupation is a vital component of any tenancy, unless the students can demonstrate that they either collectively or independently had dominion over who could & could not enter the house, including the right to exclude the op, then they do not have a tenancy.

This is a well known & well debated issue with regard to house share arrangements.

Mrs OBumble · 07-02-2023 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209929#Comment_120209929

Well I am a landlord ( and also a tenant) - and I firmly believe the LL should give the full deposit back subject to no damage and rent paid for the time the tenants were there).

Because there is a big power imbalance between tenant and landlord. Because getting properties back is difficult at the moment. And because not giving it back gives landlords a bad name.

I've never like people having overlapping rentals. IMHO it's very unfair to have to pay for two places at once.

Obligation to return deposit if tenant moving out without notice

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