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Advice needed - planning permission in housing estate

  • 22-01-2023 8:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 8


    Hi,

    We bought a house 12+ months ago in a small, new housing estate. The estate is located on a large piece of land, all owned by the same developer. We were under no illusion when we bought that the estate would be expanded. However, the developer has just put in for planning for 90% apartments. A huge block of which will be located directly across from our house and overlooking us (5-6 stories). We had been told this would be a green area, and now we are potentially facing this. Houses I could deal with, but not this. Has anyone any advice, success stories, etc.


    Obviously we (and other residents) will be objecting to this.



Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How about you give all those people renting or living at home the opportunity to maybe get themselves a place of their own? Instead of going "well, I have my gaff and I don't give anyone else so I'll do my absolute best to pull the ladder up behind me".

    People who object to housing in the middle of a housing crisis which is already a decade old nauseate me.

    Post edited by DOCARCH on


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    If he has valid grounds to object then he can. But I don't want apartments built looking onto my house on undeveloped land isn't a valid reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 renegade4


    Oh because that’s exactly what I said, that I don’t want anyone else to have a home 🤦🏼‍♀️ I too took years of heartache to get onto the property ladder so that’s a big assumption to make.. to be clear, I don’t object to apartments in our development, but I do object to having a 6 story apartment block overlooking my home, blocking my view and sunlight and also, to the fact that I had been told I would have a green area for my children to play on



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,223 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Have you checked the planning file for your own development?

    That should clarify the status of the land you think should be your green area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 renegade4


    Thank you, when you say planning file.. do you mean the original plans?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,223 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I mean the file in your local authority that contains the details of the planning permission for your estate.

    It will be available online but a hard copy will be in the planning department of the local authority.

    You will see plans, site map, reports etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 renegade4


    So the planning permission was granted in 2016 and showed the green area. This planning has now lapsed and they have resubmitted a new application this week, which is very different to the original



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,223 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    This seems to be your problem.

    Am I correct that the green area is part of a separate planning application and not part of the planning application for your house?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 renegade4


    No, the planning application for our house had the green area included. There was to be a green area and a number of semi detached houses.


    They didn’t finish it (currently a building site) and have now resubmitted totally different plans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,223 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Will that leave you with no green area?

    It seems without knowing all the details that you probably need to prepare an objection to this new application.

    Maybe a good idea to get the neighbors together.

    You could consider getting a planning consultant to help you with the objection.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8 renegade4


    Yes no green unfortunately.. there will be one elsewhere in the estate but not near our home. It is just so frustrating to have bought a house on a cul de sac with this promise and for it to be replaced with a huge block of apartments and a road. I have no objection to them going elsewhere in the estate and agree we need more homes than ever. It just feels we were lied to.


    thank you for your advice, all residents seem to be on the same page, and a planning consultant is a great idea which I hadn’t thought of! Thank you



  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭chrisd2019


    You will get much more information about your current estates planning permission by visiting the planning office, as not all items are easily studied online.

    Also view the file for the new development while there. Bring a phone with a good camera to make copies of relevant sections.

    If you do want to submit an observation, I advise you do it jointly with your neighbours or others effected by the proposed development.

    If after seeing the files you want to proceed, then look at observations made by others regarding other developments within the county, to see the topics that are of relevance to planning policy in your area.

    Finally making an observation is not depriving others of a home, as a revised layout may be approved. Ultimately many approved schemes are never built as they are part of developers planning options for their future business and all are not intended to be completed.

    Above advise is from my successful observation (with my neighbours) on a proposed development that would have built a 4 story block 8M from my house rear wall. Ultimately development was dropped after a board pleanala judgement when it became apparent that one part of the site was not owned by the person who was supposed to sell it to the developer.

    At present the two parties are on the way to the high court regarding the costs of the whole thing!



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 renegade4


    Thank you for the above. We absolutely do not want anyone to be deprived of a home, we simply want the layout revised.


    When you say make a joint observation, do you mean a single observation on behalf of all residents? Or we all submit the same observation individually (but reference the collective). We are planning to meet about this and submit observations.


    will I be able to access submitted observations on other developments from the planning office also?

    Thank you again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,223 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    No need to feel guilty.

    We need a lot of housing but that doesn't have to come at the cost of bad planning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Kurooi


    Common sight now, developers trying to profiteer by slapping 5 storey blocks at end of suburb cul-de-sacs, force public pressure to approve ghetto conditions because "more housing". I pray planning authorities have the sense to decline this nonsense. We need to talk quality of housing. Proper family homes, green spaces, amenities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,004 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It's possible to lodge an application to change the permission. Nothing wrong with that per se. But that also need to respect the requirements of the original permission. It would be worth engaging a planning consultant, and trying to get the green area maintained. You may need to accept that their will be some units somewhere



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,004 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The fact that people think a lo rise apartments is a ghetto is, in my view, the biggest contributor to the housing crisis. Ireland has a massive shortage of apartments in built areas, and is really behind the rest of the world. This in turn the quality of apartments being poor, which in turn leads to a poor opinion of apartments.

    There's no reason that apartments would have any less green areas, if anything higher densities lend themselves to better land use and more green areas. Ditto for amenities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Kurooi


    No, apartments stuck on to someone's back garden. That's ghetto conditions.

    Build proper apartments on their own, mix of different sizes, throw in security, a car park, a creche, a supermarket or an office - brilliant good development.

    Ireland is indeed behind, letting corrupt developers guide city planning, and understanding "apartments" as a way to stuff the poor undesirables into cramped boxes. We've circled to soviet era ideas and half of you are cheering at the immenient disgusting class divide that's happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 renegade4


    Thanks all. Totally accept there will be apartments units and expected there to be (original plans were about 20), but we’re looking at 100+ now and a lot less actual housing. This is not in a town centre either, this is a suburban housing estate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    Might be worth talking to a local councilor, they may help organise putting an objection in.

    But yeah this isn't standard nimbyism, if the original plans said there was a green there, thats what should be there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭bemak


    the developer will need to ensure that the overall provision of open space originally granted is maintained. depending on your council, some authorities require a rate of 2.5ha of Open Space per 1000 people or simply 25sqm per person. You can work out the proposed population of your development by counting the number of 1 & 2-bed units and applying a rate of 1.5 persons per unit and for 3-bed units or more apply a rate of 3.5 persons. If they're adding an apartment block to the development, they may not be providing adequate Open Space for the development.

    You can also look at what impact this apartment block will have on your property in terms of daylight / overshadowing. If the apartment block is to the north of your house it won't have any impact in that regard.

    The other thing you can check is parking. Has adequate parking been provided for the apartment block - if they're applied for a reduced rate based on the proximity to public transport, how is the parking managed. You just want to be sure that people won't be forced to park haphazardly because of limited provision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    You should also look up your local area development plan - this will have guidelines on population density etc that might be of interest



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    You have to remember, the developer has to meet "density" requirements now that didn't exist 7 years ago to get new planning.

    If you have anything that specifically showed the green area as being undeveloped for the sale of the house your in, it could give you options. But a green area owned by the developer and not handed over the council is always going to be land that can be developed on in the future. One of the few hard rules for buying is don't buy beside undeveloped land with a expectation it will never be turned into something else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,004 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Where has anybody mentioned building apartments in a backgarden. Not sure if you just making things up, or misread the OP.

    Build proper apartments on their own, mix of different sizes, throw in security, a car park, a creche, a supermarket or an office - brilliant good development.

    I agree that would be good. Commercial/retail spaces should be provided. But you can’t really dictate who leases them. Could be a cafe, a florist, a takeaway

    Security is up to the owners, not the developer, etc.

    Ireland is indeed behind, letting corrupt developers guide city planning, and understanding "apartments" as a way to stuff the poor undesirables into cramped boxes. We've circled to soviet era ideas and half of you are cheering at the immenient disgusting class divide that's happening.

    You have that backwards. Developers are reacting to poor planning policy.

    The low rise restriction in Dublin. Limits the units developers can build on a site. This in turn pushed property prices up and increases urban sprawl. Then prices increase on the margins, developers try squeeze out more from crap policies. And so on.

    And it’s not just Dublin. The low limit in the capital impacts prevention, so they people think a 4 story block in town centre is a skyscraper.

    Its not just residential. It’s a big issue in commercial too sectors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Kurooi


    It wouldn't just be good, it's essential. You take a small plot in an existing development , cram 100 apartments in there and expect the society as a grander whole will "fix" the issues, patch some facilities around the greedy developer. That's impossible. That was the last piece of spare land in that area. If we don't force there to be schools, creches, offices, commercial units, car parks, greenery all built along with those blocks, there won't be any at all.

    Then people don't want to stay there, normal working human beings won't live there. They need parking, they need to be closer to a shop they don't want to live on frozen pizza alone, they need jobs to work, a school for their kids , somewhere to drop off a toddler and maybe one bloody patch of grass for their own mental sanity. Developments have to offer something to the community, not just take take take. We can't make stuffing developer pockets the end goal, there are responsibilities attached.

    These developments are purpose built to become ghettos of the future.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's NIMBY types like the OP that cause every major project in the country to take 3 or 4 decades instead of 3 or 4 years. There's people objecting to a graveyard in Citywest today- because the only real tragedy when someone dies is the effect it has on traffic when they're buried FFS. "This dead person will disturb my view & make me detour my walk" is fcuked up thinking.

    Sure, we'd all love perfectly planned developments. Except there's no such thing in real life, and there's 10,000 people living in homeless accommodation and probably 10 or 20 times that living in unsuitable shared accommodation and with their parents into their late 20s and 30s because they have no choice.

    Developers by the way (sh1t as many of them obviously are) aren't responsible for training doctors, nurses, teachers etc. Or for building schools, creches etc. That's the job of the government. A developer (shock horror) is in the business to make money, it's the job of local government to sort out the planning and national government to use the tax money to build amenities. Hardly rocket science.

    So maybe pull your heads out of your @rses with your "this isn't perfect and might spoil my view so it can't be allowed happen" and maybe get on board with the concept that if you want your kids to have a decent place to live that might require you to make some sacrifices beyond just helping them out with the deposit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,223 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Nice rant but with the prices people are paying these days they deserve properly planned developments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,004 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You think a plot of land big enough for a single apartment block. Should be replaced with schools, creches, offices, commercial units, car parks, greenery, as well as the apartment block.

    Should be kinda obvious that there is a fundamental physical issue, that they couldn’t possibly all fit on a plot of land that is not significantly large.

    Add to that, you are ignoring lots of other common sense basics. Schools are the responsibility of the DoE, not developers for a start.

    Then there is a principle of zoning. OP is presumably referring to a residential estate. Offices, commercial units, car parks have no business in an estate. And would be a much bigger inconvenience to the OP. Those should be in town centres, commercial blocks etc. With it without higher density housing. Simple stuff really.



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