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FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    She is twice the politician than any of your cabinet members and she only became a TD in 2016. It was an eloquent reminder to the FFG government on how they have deliberately stalled all reform in this area. It's haunting them now. Do you see 2015 Bills being parked indefinitely in order to continue the culture of cronyism and corruption as success?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    We have the old Hogan excuses now to EU important job. Something something. EU said er sorry lads nope your outa here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,318 ✭✭✭emo72


    Listening to Holly Cairns on the Gavan Reilly and friends podcast. She had a harrowing time as a female politician, my heart really goes out to her. No one should have to put up with that shite. It was also quite telling that she gave a reason why the public is acting so aggressively against politicians, basically alluding to the fact that people feel they've nothing to lose anymore. They've made life so bad for us people are reacting. I'm telling yis lads, things are going to get worse. It's not good.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Blut2


    A lot of politicians/wealthy people are only just starting to consider that I fear. If you remove all hope from the bottom 50% of society (no hope of ever owning a home, a continuous drop in quality of life every few years, an ongoing worsening in public services like healthcare, increasing income inequality etc) then sooner or later that bottom 50% is going to revolt. In a democratic way if we're relatively lucky, with things like Brexit or the rise of the far right across Europe. In more violent ways if we're unlucky.

    Even the arch conservative Otto von Bismarck realised to pacify the working class you at least needed to keep their standards of living gradually improving so they'd have hope. Our current government don't seem to have accepted that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Talk about circling the wagons:

    Why do I get the feeling others in this circus masquerading as a government have something to hide?

    Though watching the news it would appear amnesia is endemic in both the Irish & British governments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Aragh that's some moaning out of Humphreys. The FG crew are getting really bad money for their army of advisors. Sure Labour and SocDems and Independents including Catherine Connolly absolutely skewered Paschal last week in the Dail. His refusal to answer questions was the problem. Imagine, the minister for Ethics/Reform refusing to answer ethical questions. Connolly asked repeatedly why the 2015 reform bill was gathering dust for 8 years and why SIPO have never been given the powers they need. Turkeys don't vote for Xmas.

    100% Cronyism. Everybody knows this.

    We should be talking about the health and housing crisis that FFG created but instead we are talking about their cronyism, corruption and blocking reform.

    And Damien English got off light.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Sorry, care to shed light on your comment? I’m not sure how to interpret it: is it becoming repetitive as in more of the same or You complaining about this story not being ‘put to bed’?

    Zahawi in London admitted in London that He did pay a tax of mega money, meanwhile here English forgets He has houses, Troy- has so many houses it appears he forgot some& now Donohue who imho comes across as smug and is ‘always right’ is in trouble too. As far as I’m concerned, ANY politician covering up needs to be exposed.

    End of!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Edit: I am conscious that this thread is about the 3 parties ‘running’ the country.

    But…… I just switched on Sky News & now Bojo is being accused of using ‘favours’. This just makes me wonder is there such a thing as a ‘clean’ politician in this part of the World.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,453 ✭✭✭jmcc


    FG down 4%. Some people will be so upset.

    Regards...jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    I find it mind boggling that FF ( according to this poll ) have gained 4%.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Blut2


    For a lot of FG voters FF are a relatively safe/attractive place to migrate their vote to - FF are currently the less incompetent, less corrupt, and less heartless (towards homeless/poor people/etc) of the two parties. But while still not being as left wing as SF or the SocDems or anyone else who those voters mightn't feel like moving to for policy reasons.

    The two parties are mostly in competition with each other for the same 30-35% of the electorate in the upcoming election now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,478 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Not surprising FG % is falling like steel girders. There was very little of note in the recent budget for their core base- in fact they whalloped on more taxes to company car users, plenty of whom would be traditional FG voter base.

    My January pay slip showed nothing of note anyhow. PRSI how up slightly I think. From what I can make out I’ve seen a truly amazing €20 per month reduction in PAYE- Pascal is such a financial genius indeed.

    So much for Leo’s “Rewarding those that get up in the morning” claptrap. This is a hard left high welfare high tax shambles of a government- and FG support it.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    You can see what the difference is here https://www.pwc.ie/issues/budget-2023/income-tax-calculator.html

    For someone on 40k a year, they should get an extra 831 a year, 69 a month. You should be paying the same PRSI as last year, assuming your income has stayed the same.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,478 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Thank you. There was some BIK included in my payslip for this month which may have had an impact on the net figure so. I would be paying at the higher rate



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    The Rascal may need to go 4% Drop. The next one is going to be terrible to behold. I don't think the anger of the refugee situation has properly filtered though yet. Would not be surprised of a 10% drop in some of the parties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,327 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I see that opinion polls have become newsworthy again, surprise, surprise.

    As always, some fluctuations in support, but the key point was once again missed completely by the experts.

    Just past the midpoint of the electoral cycle and the government are at 49% in the polls. By any historical standard, here or abroad, that is the type of support that leads to them being re-elected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,830 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    When Martin resigns the new FF leader will want to reassert some sense of FF as a party.

    Looking increasingly unlikely he will do that before the next election, and it's hard to see the party summoning up the backbone to force him out, unless they collapse in the polls.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,830 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    If he was intending to do that I'm convinced he would have given some indication round the taoiseach/tanaiste handover, thus heading off any risk he would be dragged out of the FF leadership kicking & screaming...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,453 ✭✭✭jmcc



    B&A's methodology always favours FF as it uses face to face polling. FF's supporters tend to be in the older demographics and don't like phone or online polling. RedC uses a 40K panel to provide its sample as it thinks that these people are representative of the electorate. It also has demographic and location data on the panel. A RedC poll may be due this weekend. That's the one to watch because it had FG on one of its lowest support levels ever before Christmas. FG could be facing some real problems based on the B&A poll. Most of the polls over the last six months or so have been quite stable and movements have been within the Margin of Error.The B&A poll's movement for FG and FF was out side the MoE (+/- 3.3%).and it was carried out when the Paschal Donohoe fiasco was only starting. It may have been a backlash against Damien English's activity.

    The Greens are also in trouble due to the surge in bogus asylum seekers mainly from the war-torn UK and the lack of accommodation for genuine refugees from Ukraine. Water melon (Green on the outside and Labour on the inside) Greens have caused a lot of resentment for the Greens and they stand to lose most of their TDs in the next GE. What is surprising about the B&A poll is that Labour has absolutely failed to make any advance under Bacik and the Sunday Times had an article about discontent in Labour over Bacik's rule. Even RTE, a great supporter of Labour and Labourites, has more or less sidelined Labour as a fringe party.

    It has been a bad few weeks for FFG and the danger is that the next few polls should show a growing resentment of the arrogance of FG. The problem for FF is that it has a wannabe FGer as leader who grovels to FG at every opportunity and it may not be able to take advantage of any increase in support. It may also be a kind of post-Christmas rebound as the dossers in the Dail were on holidays until recently. If there is an increase in SF's support in the next RedC poll then the FFG supporters in the media and its meatbots on Social Media may become even more unhinged especially if SF is anywhere near 40% in the next few polls.

    Regards...jmcc

    Post edited by jmcc on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭howiya




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Interesting stuff from the Oireachtas committee yesterday

    Healthcare is held back by paper-based records as funding yet to be approved for switch to electronic system – HSE - Independent.ie

    He told the Oireachtas health committee that a business case made to the Department of Public Expenditure in 2018 to fund the extension of digitalisation was turned down on the grounds it was necessary to see how the system works in the new national children’s hospital first although it will not be ready until next year.

    He said that in 2018 and 2019 the HSE sought approval procurement national electronic health record system from the Department of Expenditure and Reform.

    “This work would have included an electronic health record for acute and community services and provided a portal for patients to access their data.“

    Approval was deferred in 2019 until a review of the outcomes of the new national children’s hospital which was approved, was completed.

    ---------------

    That's the FG legacy...

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Seems they are trying to ban protesting now. Making residential meaning 2 people inside. So hotels everything Will be off limits even if your outside on the street. That means regardless if it's intimidation or not It will be Illegal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,327 ✭✭✭✭blanch152




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Great summation JMCC.

    let’s hope You ain’t far out. I was a labour supporter all my life. After the Gilmore/Burton shenanigans I’d have thought they’d be dead & buried. How anyone gives them a vote has very short memories.

    As for the greens? I won’t waste any space on them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,327 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is really helpful, not.

    What effect does a motion in the Seanad have?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,453 ✭✭✭jmcc


    The Greens have a kind of identity crisis at the moment. The topics for which they've campaigned for decades have become mainstream and have been adopted by the major parties. The implosion of Labour in 2016 also ensured that the Greens picked up a lot of water melon (Green on the outside and Labour on the inside) supporters and votes. Some of them split from the Greens to form their own party (Green Left) but haven't been heard from since. The Greens have a dedicated and almost ideological support base that will keep voting for Green candidates but it is not a Left wing party. The SocDems are beginning to pose a big threat to Labour and Bacik and co are desperate to get their claws into SocDem votes. The problem is that SocDem voters are often younger and despise Labour. The upcoming Local Elections will be interesting.

    Regards...jmcc

    Post edited by jmcc on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    I am in my 60’s so not young. But I also regard myself now as a Social Democrat supporter. When it comes to health issues Roisín Shortall comes across as very articulate.

    So Bacik & her Labour Party, I have a message for you: you blew it with the likes of Gilmore/Burton/Rabbitte. Never again will I vote for your lot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Another record broken by the FFG government. Well done.

    Homeless figures hit record high in December (rte.ie)

    Homeless figures hit record high in December

    More than 11,600 people including almost 3,500 children were accessing emergency accommodation during the week leading up to Christmas, according to the latest homelessness figures.

    This represents a record high in numbers for the sixth consecutive month.

    Speaking on RTÉ's Drivetime, he said that the December figures were particularly shocking when respite is usually offered during a Christmas period so numbers tend to be lower.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Blut2


    I'm not one for the far-rights "all refugees are bad" type stuff but surely anyone can understand its utter madness that there are still almost 500 international protection arrivals a week, mostly young men from Albania/Nigeria/Georgia/Algeria in 2022 (ie, nowhere at war, or with direct flights to Ireland) being housed when there are literally thousands of homeless Irish kids homeless.

    How out of touch can the government be on the issue? We're going to end up with a proper extreme far-right party here gaining lots of support before long if they keep not responding to it. We need to limit the international protection program to only women & children fleeing an actual war who have nowhere else to go, those who actually need it most.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    IMHO Blut2, you’re anything but ‘far right’, more thinking sensibly.

    Personally, I’ve always wondered ( & again I’m totally against racism ) just how those gypseys with long skirts/dresses are allowed in. They seem to be nearly always pushing a pram with a baby in tow. Quite simply, I just wonder what they have to offer Ireland.

    As for Albania, aren’t they trying to join the EU?

    But sorry, I am diversifying. Apologies!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,453 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Another bad poll for FFG. This one is by RedC.

    Regards...jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Very interesting poll. Fine Gael the big losers. The highlights...

    The Red C/Business Post poll puts Sinn Féin at 33% up 2% and Fine Gael at 21%, down 3% versus the same poll one month previously.

    The online surveyed which involved 1,004 adults took place between Friday 20 January and Wednesday 25 January. During this period, Public Expenditure Minister Paschal Donohoe was embroiled in the controversy over his electoral expenses.

    The survey also reflects the changeover in Government since Fine Gael leader Leo Varadkar took over as Taoiseach.

    Fianna Fáil remain at 15%.

    The poll suggests the Social Democrats are on 6%, up 2% while the Green Party is at 4%, down 1%.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Purely my perspective on reading this feature.

    if I was a shinner, I’d be disappointed with the share. Surely after the turmoil that Troy, English & Donohue caused, I’d have assumed SF would gain more.

    If I was a FF supporter I’d be gutted that my party was stuck on 15%.

    As a FGer, I’d be thinking that someone’s head has to roll.

    As for labour, I regard them as history.

    The greens🙄. They really have to change strategy if they want to avoid becoming another PD party. For me ( & this is only my view ) their answer to everything is tax tax and more tax. Also, their ‘leader’ really needs replacing.

    I am glad to see the SD’s climbing. My only fear is they repeat in the next election the same error that SF made in the last election - not field enough candidates.

    Purely my view based on the latest poll.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Interesting breakdown of that poll. FF at 10% in Dublin is pretty grim for them, they're on the verge of dying out in urban areas.

    Interesting also to see the SocDems only polling at 3% with C2DEs. Too much focus on identity politics and not enough on policies working class people care about I guess, interestingly for a so called left wing party.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,453 ✭✭✭jmcc


    The problem, to keep in mind with these breakdowns is that the Margin of Error skyrockets because the poll was only around 1K people. RedC's methodology and sampling always underestimates FF support. Sometimes it can be by about 5% or more. Despite FF's demographics being older than other parties, some of those demogaphics consistently vote. Support doesn't matter if those supporters don't vote.

    FF has a major problem with Dublin support because a lot of that is now shifting to SF. There's a sense that FF only takes care of its cronies and grovels to FG at every opportunity under the useless Martin. If it is to have any hope in Dublin, it needs to dump that wannabe FGer.

    The SocDems are interesting in that they are Labour without the baggage. It will take them at least two election cycles to adjust but they may benefit from the anyone but FFG/Lab vote. That gain will put the fear in the Labour because under Bacik it has not seen any increase in support. Labour was making noises about merging with the SocDems but the real reason is that the Labouriites want to get their claws into SocDem votes so that they can maintain their snouts in the public trough.

    There's a realignment happening beneath the surface of Irish politics. RedC's opinion piece on how Immigration is on the way to becoming an election issue is worth reading. The last major protests in Ireland were the Water Tax protests. There are now sporadic protests happening and it is probably only a matter for time before they go mainstream. The Water Tax protests led to the rightful obliteration of Labour in 2016 (from 37 seats in 2011 to 7 in 2016). These protests, unless FFG does something quickly, will lead to an implosion of FFG seats and their replacement with single-issue Indpendent candidates. If this treds starts to play out, the first signs will be the "Undecided" % increasing in various polls along with the non-response rate (people telling pollsters to feck off) increasing.

    Regards



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,830 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    The poll suggests the Social Democrats are on 6%, up 2% while the Green Party is at 4%, down 1%.

    Ratings of the smaller left parties seems to fluctuate arbitrarily between 0 and 5-6%, with little link that I can see to how things are going for them in the real world. SDs were on 0 in one poll over the summer that coincided with their annual conference. Even Aontu has hit 4% on occasion. I doubt the parties themselves pay much heed because it all seems so random.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Blut2


    I'd agree about FF, I think the years in government with FG have resulted in them being viewed as consistently more and more economically right wing as they've just fallen into line with FG on most issues. Thats playing a big part in SF eating the urban working class vote that used to reliably back FF. It'll be interesting to see if coming into the next election, or if under a new leader, FF move back towards emphasizing their more centrist/populist economic policies or not.

    If/when the migration protests gather speed like the Water Tax ones (which does seem to be happening) I disagree that it will hit FF and FG that hard though. I think both parties will follow public opinion on the matter, neither is ideologically committed to open borders.

    Its Labour, the SocDems and the Greens, all of whom are on the record calling for more open borders, who're likely to be really hit by the issue. They're all committed to open borders as a concept, and are still regularly in the media defending letting in more international protection migrants as of last week - when FF, FG and SF all have the common sense to be saying nothing about it currently, because they can see the public anger rising.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,453 ✭✭✭jmcc


    It should be random. That's the whole point of basing a poll on a random sample of people that is representative of the population being surveyed. The problem with RedC is that it is more pseudo-random than random because it doesn't use a random sample of the electorate. It uses a random sample of a 40K panel of people that it believes represents the electorate. That's why is results for fringe parties show far less variation than with other polls. The RedC poll has elements of a tracking poll (where the same person might be surveyed multiple times over a period) and a random poll but it gets down to exactly how representative a sample its random sample of that 40K panel is compred to the electorate

    Another issue is that these are all small sample (1K people or less) surveys and only ask about first preference choices. Ireland uses he Single Transferable Vote system which has multiple preferences and apart from the front runners, most candidates depend on transfers to get elected. This is what the talk of all these polls misses.

    There's a geographical concentration issue with some fringe parties and candidates. A party needs to be over 5% to be considered a "national party". Below that and its votes will be highly geographically concentrated if it has TDs.This also applies to Independents who are the ultimate in geographically concentrated votes. With a small sample of 1K or so with an electorate in the millions, the support for small parties can bounce around between 0 and 5%. On some polls, small parties like Aontu or PBP can go to 0% 00but they still get TDs elected because of the geographical concentration of their vote.

    Couple all this with the fact that most political correspondents and journalists don't have an background in any Mathematical discipline (STEM) and you are left with the problem of people who don't understand how opinion polls work tryng to interpret their results. They can't properly explain the results because they simply don't understand the limitations of the polling methodologies or sampling. They then guess how many seats that the parties will get based on these percentages which typically apply to first preference votes. This is why they did not predict the Greens getting so many seats in 2020 or Labour being obliterated in 2016 or even the resurrection of FF in 2016.

    Perhaps it is best to illustrate it as a joke.

    Three pollsters go deer hunting. They spot a deer. The first pollster fires and hits the ground three feet to the left of the deer. The second fires and hits a tree three feet to the right of the deer. The third pollster jumps up and down yelling "we got him". The Sindo scribblers write it up as "Herd of deer massacred on the Moon. Sinn Fein suspected.". :)

    Regards...jmcc

    Post edited by jmcc on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,961 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Time for this lot to go isn't it?

    Housing and Health alone are so bad. While we aren't seeing mass protest against the government directly, we're seeing dispersed protest again health, and pro and anti immigration. And that awful violent attack on a homeless shelter in Dublin is disgusting.

    I think the general mood is that they've failed terribly and their time has passed.

    They haven't made any substantial changes to the awful policies which put us in this position, and if we leave them in power for another two years we'll be further behind.

    I think a lot of people, who are not directly affected, have been unaware of how bad housing has been. In part because everything is a 'crisis' these days. And the immigration protests are just bringing it to the fore.

    I'm not naive enough to believe that SF are going to wave a magic wand and fix everything overnight. But it's been clear for a long time a number of measure could have been taken around increasing the supply of houses and have been ignored whether because of ignorance, incompetence, or greed/corruption.

    While I'm at it, what options are there for getting rid of this lot? Are there other mechanisms other than a vote of no-confidence? Can the president step in? Petition? Do governments ever just resign because they're just not up to the job?

    Post edited by MegamanBoo on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,961 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    This is the attack I'm talking about. https://www.thejournal.ie/racist-attack-on-a-dublin-homeless-camp-described-as-a-sickening-low-5982393-Jan2023/

    Inaction on housing has opened the door wide for this kind of hate.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Inaction on health is shocking really considering it's only getting worse .

    Needs a radical overhaul but won't happen



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,961 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Again I don't think SF are going to fix everything, or am I particularly fond of them.

    But surely it's clear things are hopeless with this lot.

    My suspicion is some in Fine Fail will have realized the FFG brand is toxic. They'll try to collapse the coalition from within and reclaim a historical centre left position. Meehole will have to go first though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,436 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    But they fixcccccsssssshhhhheeeeeeedddddd the road.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Someone in governments been watching gladiator

    They're giving the people what they want throwing out handouts and bumping social welfare



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,961 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    The spirit of Bertie lives on!

    How'd that work out the last time?



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