Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 07:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116816#Comment_120116816

I think baird is a byrne type player. 6/2 split perhaps?

TRC10 · 16-01-2023 07:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116869#Comment_120116869

The idea would be Beirne moves up to lock when Baird comes in at 6. I feel that offers more impact than just a straight swap of Treadwell for Henderson.

I'd be starting Henderson. He's been good for Ulster since he's come back and he gives us a real collision winner at lock. He's also more of a tighthead lock than Ryan and I think the scrum is the one area Gatland will see that he can really go after us in. So we could do with the extra heft.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 07:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116943#Comment_120116943

I'm thinking not enough mass there. Need hendo an Ryan in the tight 5 I think.

Edit: not too worried about the scrum. We tend to tire teams out.

TRC10 · 16-01-2023 08:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116958#Comment_120116958

Need hendo an Ryan in the tight 5 I think.

Yeah, that's what I'd do as well. Beirne at 6.

16-01-2023 09:17PM

I have no idea what people are talking about with mccloskey. He’s been consistently great even in the losing streak. A team losing doesnt mean everyone is out of form.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 09:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117338#Comment_120117338

He's good. Not top class though.

16-01-2023 09:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117369#Comment_120117369

He’s an international level 12.

Dubinusa · 16-01-2023 09:48PM

Jared Payne taking over for Gibbes! Good for him.

McCloskey is a brilliant player. He's international standard, imo.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 09:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117456#Comment_120117456

Technically true. I think he's a cracking player(plus i think hes developed a lot in his game this year), but not better than others. Osborne will bypass him soon and Crowley is there as well.

16-01-2023 10:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117508#Comment_120117508

Aki and Henshaw are the reason he hasn’t played much.

Osborne could be great, but i’m not even sure if 12 is his best position. Crowley is not an international 12 right now. He’s a 10.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 10:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117548#Comment_120117548

Hmmm. Very valid points. Osborne I think is a sensation. Might be too early.

16-01-2023 10:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117587#Comment_120117587

I think Osborne will make it. I don't think there will be wholesale changes, but the guys who I think will be unlucky to miss out are Ross Byrne and Mike Haley. Both are unfortunate in that I think it's their lack of versatility counting against them. In a weird way, if the incumbents were out, I'd almost rather Byrne at 10 and Haley at 15 over the alternatives, but their lack of versatility might see them miss the squad entirely.

The other areas of discussion will be: (i) whether Loughman makes the squad as the third LHP having missed some time with injury, (ii) whether Tom Stewart can sneak in as the third hooker ahead of Herring - unlikely I'd say. (iii) I'd expect Coombes in the squad with Deegan dropping out. (iv) I think Crowley makes it as the third 10. His versatility (like Frawley) is surely something the coaches prize. Crowley is unquestionably a very talented rugby player, but I don't know if he's a top class out half yet. Needs more time in the camp and game time there. (v) Fifth centre option - I'm assuming Bundee makes the cut (along with Ringrose, Henshaw and McCloskey. Hume will miss out, and I think Jamie Osborne will make the squad. If Bundee is gone, I think Frisch will make it too. (vi) Roman Salanoa might make it into the squad as the third THP option. He probably has a higher ceiling than Tom O'Toole? (vii) Murray will make the squad, but Earls will miss out imo.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 10:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117674#Comment_120117674

Oh. Throwing a few interesting ones in. I think Aki is gone. Something doesn't seem right.

16-01-2023 10:39PM

Osborne would be good bench option seeing as he can play so many positions. If I was JOB, he would worry me.

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Salanoa had a bit of a meteoritic rise. He’s a pretty special athlete.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 10:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117714#Comment_120117714

Job would worry you? Was that a threat or a request?

16-01-2023 10:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117732#Comment_120117732

If I was JOB, Osborne would worry me. Does that not make sense lol.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 10:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117746#Comment_120117746

Yip.

Edit: I think job will be there or there abouts in the 6 nations.

16-01-2023 11:15PM

Front row for Wales picks itself but the back 5 is a real challenge. Still not sure about Baird at 6 as a lot more will be asked of him and we know what POM / Beirne can deliver. Henderson another that on top form is a starter but I've watched a good bit of Ulster and he's been good but am not sure good enough to push back into the 15 / 23.

Centres are Henshaw and Ringrose if fit, if Henshaw is out and Farrell isn't bothered by Aki's exclusion in Connacht (which I don't think is form based at all) then I think he's still ahead of McCloskey but not much in it and all good options to have. Sexton at 10, Park has been more of a mixed bag but still think he's a shoo in for 9. Hansen, Keenan, Lowe for back three but it's getting really competitive there with Haley flying it, Larmour coming back with a bit of a bang too and the likes of Nash, Osbourne, JO'B, Balacoune and a good few others clearly all capable of slotting in.

If I had to guess the team (have specifically marked players I think are in full ownership of the starting jersey):

Porter (cert to start)

Sheehan

Furlong (cert to start)

Beirne (cert to start)

Ryan (cert to start)

POM

VDF (cert to start)

Doris (cert to start)

JGP

Sexton (cert to start)

Hansen (cert to start)

Henshaw (cert to start)

Ringrose (cert to start)

Lowe (cert to start)

Keenan (cert to start)

Healy

Kelleher

Bealham

Henderson

Conan

Murray but very close to going Casey

Carbery

JOB as he delivered in the Autumn Internationals but again could easily be Haley or Larmour

Akrasia · 16-01-2023 11:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117338#Comment_120117338

Yeah. Stu hasn't played badly. He had to fight harder than anyone else to break into the Irish panel. it would be extremely unfair to drop him because his club are having a poor run of games.

gameoverdude · 16-01-2023 11:22PM

I think you have to go with pom and baird on the bench.

Must love hardship · 16-01-2023 11:35PM

My Stab at the panel if only 36. Obviously with Henshaw to come back in once recovered. I'm guessing Lowe is available too even though he's in NEw Zealand.

LH: Porter, Healy, Loughman

Hooker: Sheehan, Kelleher, Stewart

TH: Furlong, Bedhlam, Salanoa

SR: Ryan,McCarthy, Henderson, Bierne,Threadwell

BR: Baird, POM, Doris, VDF, Timoney, Conan,

SH: JGP, Murray, Casey

OH: Sexton, Carberry, Byrne

C: Crowley,Osborne, McCloskey, Ringrose,

B3: Lowe, Hansen, JOB, Keenan, Larmour, Stockdale.

Development players:

Doak, Forde.

Former Former Former · 16-01-2023 11:39PM

I don't think Henshaw has even trained since the Fiji game, can't see him being ready in three weeks

Wegians89 · 17-01-2023 08:34AM

Centres I’d have would be Henshaw, Ringrose, Bundee McCloskey, Osbourne. If Bundee is gone I’d call up Frisch.

Stockdale isn’t getting near the squad and if Baird is picked in the back row id say it’ll be 4 locks and an extra back row. Prendergast or Coombes

CIARAN_BOYLE · 17-01-2023 09:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118016#Comment_120118016

I agree but I would expect him to continue his rehab training in the national camp and named in the squad even if he doesn't feature.

Zeugnis · 17-01-2023 10:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115154#Comment_120115154

Stockdale is also on a central contract and looks highly unlikely to figure. His case is obviously different as he has been injured and isn't close to retirement age, but I think it's further evidence of the dubious wisdom behind the central contract system.

This argument about Murray, Earls etc being worth a central contract for their experience is nonsense IMO. Enjoy the benefits of experience from those either still in a position to win the jersey on merit when it counts, like Johnny, or have them in the coaching staff like Paul O'Connell.

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2023 10:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118854#Comment_120118854

The Central contracts thing is overblown to be honest.

It's just a way of managing budgets more than anything else.

There is no indication that someone on a central contract is on more money that an international on a Provincial deal.

sydthebeat · 17-01-2023 11:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118897#Comment_120118897

100%

they mean nothing in earnest. JVDF is on as much with leinster as he would do on a CC.

Being on a central contract certainly does not mean that player MUST get selected, despite what some of the conspiracy theorists here would purport. It simply means their contract is topped up by the IRFU over what a province may be able to afford, as a way to retain that players services in ireland.

we can actually see that as the global market gets more deflated, theres less requirement for CCs in ireland.

Akrasia · 17-01-2023 11:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118854#Comment_120118854

Paul O Connell is retired

There is a difference between having a coach who used to be a world class player, and actually training/playing with/competing against a player who has that depth of experience.

This is just one of those things you regularly hear about from the younger players coming through.

A coach can tell you to have a positive attitude.

A teammate can show you how to actually implement that.

The fact of the matter is, if Murray wasn't on a central contract, he'd be playing in France this year, so would Earls, possibly Stockdale too

Munster wouldn't have renewed those contracts at their market value. The IRFU made a decision that it is better to have them in the Irish system than playing abroad.

starkid · 17-01-2023 12:31PM

its hardly overblown. Without seeing the actual finances its hard to prove. but parsing together the various interviews, Thornley articles, press releases, biographies one can only surmise that the central deals are the bigger deal. here's Beirne talking about it - https://www.the42.ie/tadhg-beirne-central-contract-5688701-Feb2022/ and here's Andy Farrell talking about it - https://www.the42.ie/irfu-central-contracts-5372079-Mar2021/. Both interviews indicate to me that central deals are in fact a big deal.

but as Nucifora pointed out we are getting to the stage where we are running out of room. So the central deals will become even more flawed. you can't ringfence 10-11 contracts in a 45 man squad game. it defies logic.

from what is known the best deals given are central deals. they come with gravitas and for all we know certain other perks (image rights, fees who knows).

they are a flawed, antiquated system. one that was pertinent when Ireland emerged from the doldrums in the early noughties and our players were coveted and attainable. their need nowadays is less obvious.

i can think of no other major squad sport that ringfences certain players on special bracketed deals and then unquestionably (from fans as well) continues them on those deals while they don't play. If it was soccer Murray, Earls , Stockdale would be transferred out. Toner and McGrath might have been dropped on their cc but they still recieved the better deal most likely.

hopefully in the future its eventually sidelined.

theres enough info from the various rugby biographies that central deals are, in fact, a big deal.

at the moment in the good times its working out. there has been various points over the last while where its been shown up for as a flaw. another nothing WC most likely will see their demise i'd imagine. We're lucky Irish rugby isn't full of dickheads like many other sports. Gibson Park is definitely on a lower deal than Murray, but is a bona fide number 1 pick.

its also a question of fairness and whats right. by all accounts Murray is on more money than JVDF. its not based on anything of the last 2 years.

I do think Murray makes the WC squad. Earls possibly for everything he has given rugby. Stockdale is done i imagine. He emerged in a period we were looking for fresh talent and was excellent. But now we ahve a plethora of excellent, consistent young players.

However it was refreshing to hear Rowntree speak about this in a roundabout way.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-41048900.html

of course we have people on here who think "form" is meaningless.

TLDR - there is nothing suggesting that the central deals aren't more lucrative than provincial. There's 13 central deals. its no coincidence that certain star players are on them. 3 of them, one which is rumoured to be a serious wedge of money, are not currently warrented. Another one is directly, currently linked to a players unhappiness and willingness to leave before a WC. yes, totally unimportant.

pickarooney · 17-01-2023 12:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119185#Comment_120119185

Which ProD2 sides would Earls, Stockdale and Murray be interested in joining?

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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