Avatar 2

Foxtrol · 03-01-2023 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060374#Comment_120060374

I don't see any of it as being contradictory or complicated at all.

No one claimed they don't remember seeing the original or how they felt when they watched it in the cinema, it is that the characters and plot weren't memorable.

There are plenty of things in life that you remember the experience more than the specific details of the events. You can still pull on strings of nostalgia in those situations.

No one claimed it is 'just' the spectacle of Pandora - it is the entire spectacle of all elements of the movie. The movie, like the original, is an experience.

Foxtrol · 03-01-2023 6:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060542#Comment_120060542

They billed the movie as 'Return to Pandora' in nearly every piece of the marketing, so there is no way to reasonably claim they weren't at least attempting to pull on nostalgia.

You're being very kind to say it gets on with telling its own story, there is non stop overlap with with the first one. Off the top of my head:

same evil group,
same main villain back from the dead,
same 'invaders' and 'destroying nature' narrative
similar natural macguffin that the bad guys are after,
similar scenes of learning to work with the local nature (the villain with the same flying creature and the heroes with the water creatures),
previous supporting character brought back from the dead in the form of a child and basically all other previous characters getting their screentime,
same sort of situation of the heroes trying to settle in to a new area, discovering the surrounding nature, having small scale conflict with the local people before earning their trust and becoming part of their clan,
similar technology of the evil group (now in crab form),
similar scenes of a hero getting lost but ending up building relationships because of it,
similar giant creature who they bring on their side to help in the final battle,
similar final battle sequences,
hero ends up with the same realisation that they need to fight

I don't get your final point at all. If a writer has a 13 year gap between their first and second movie there is absolutely no excuse to basically regurgitate so many elements of the first movie. It is far more understandable when you have more than 100 hours in a franchise during the same time period that there will be overlap, especially with the comic book material they are working with. Even ignoring the previous Avatar movies, it isn't like Cameron has been churning out movies over his career yet he still manages to rethread several plot points and action scenes from his earlier works in Avatar 2.

Sad Professor · 03-01-2023 7:11pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/02/movies/avatar-the-way-of-water-high-frame-rate.html

A critical take on the film’s use of HFR.

sherrupyew · 03-01-2023 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060721#Comment_120060721

These are fairly superficial observations. It's a blockbuster sequel and there are certain elements that are naturally going to be present again. It gives the audience what they want. No studio in their right mind is going to greenlight a movie of this scale without such basic considerations. In fact, I'm sure the first Avatar would never had existed had it not committed to a tried and tested plot formula.

The story of WoW is simple but still deeper than the first. This is by design and is clearly a progression of the first film. There are certainly echoes, particularly as you see the children's journeys reflecting those of their parents (as in life). But it's hardly a problem.

Thematically, the film is exploring different (and more) ideas here. The character of Jake Sully, now a father, is very different to the first. The villain has somehow become surprisingly compelling. Fight or flight, the pull of family, respect for nature, being an outsider etc. These are all themes that are well executed and resonate with most people.

Yes there's a macguffin, and the film makes almost no effort to pretend it is anything other than that. Because the focus is on the themes, spectacle, visual storytelling and the overall emotional experience. Evidently, JC knows what he's doing.

This isn't Memento.

pixelburp · 03-01-2023 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060721#Comment_120060721

I think you're being unfairly critical of a sequel retooling similar themes or points. That's what Hollywood sequels do by and large; and it's obviously not this series' core strength. As another poster has said, the sequel has its own ideas, not least in the fairly overt angle over fatherhood. Or parenting in general if we extend it out to the whales, or the fact Kate Winslet's character was pregnant. This film hung a very big sign marked "legacy!" that set it apart. The finale literally hinged around the respective children's fates. Schlocky as hell but not the worse for it.

It's easy to pull apart a film's plot as simplistic or not especially interesting if we reduce it to glib reduction. As I said before Mad Max Fury Road is about some people who drive in a straight line for a bit, then turn around and come straight back.

Honestly I'm not sure what you're point is either. This film's doing well because nostalgia? Yes it's plot isn't great, its characters paper thin but there's a weird insistence upon this point that makes no sense in a broader scale. This is hardly a phenomenon unique to Hollywood - it's not even a phenomenon unique to James Cameron! He has never been am especially nuanced or layered writer of story or character - why the sudden emphasis with Avatar? The guy has always had 1.5D characters, this series has been no exception. Yet tweets and so on keep banging this drum like he's David Mamet.letting the side down.

johnny_ultimate · 03-01-2023 10:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060721#Comment_120060721

I don’t know, your first argument here seems to be that the marketing department advertised the sequel to Avatar as a sequel to Avatar 😅

Im not sure what you’re arguing against, to be honest. As I said in my original post on the film, the film clearly does rehash significant elements of the first film - indeed, I was iffy about the film for the first 45 mins as it was so much ‘more of the same’. But as other posters have articulated, the film does very much move things along and has its own clear, new thematic, story and character interests. Yes there are similarities small and large between the films, like another magical element for the humans to suddenly harvest or just having the same bad guy back for some reason. Nobody will be mistaking this to be a particularly original or deep screenplay. It’s a testament to all the other cool stuff Cameron’s doing that I didn’t really care about that.

Evil Dead 2 is a completely nonsensical remake of the first film and still is one of the most popular sequels of all time - it’s because Raimi revisited the structure and found a new and fresh way to tell the same basic story. Avatar 2 rehashes elements of the first film (and yes some of Cameron’s other films too!), but also feels like a proper artistic extension in the process. Sure my favourite working director is Hong Sang-soo (never thought I’d mention him in a thread about bloody Avatar 😂) who basically makes the same basic film a few times a year. But it’s the nuances and changes and shifts in perspective that makes that a fascinating and worthwhile exercise. James Cameron couldn’t be more different of a filmmaker (making the most expensive films ever made vs a guy making microbudget films about people drinking soju), but it’s nice to see him refining his vision through this sequel. Let’s just see if I feel the same in 23 months when there’s another one :)

Foxtrol · 03-01-2023 11:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061590#Comment_120061590

They are far from superficial and it isn't echoes or certain elements, it is the majority of the movie that is copied from the previous one.

Even the examples of themes that you claim are different are seen in the first. Fight or flight is dealt with in detail when Jake is trying to get the people to leave before the humans come, being an outsider is a huge element of that story with Jake eventually being accepted before they realise he has been leaking information, and respect for nature is a huge part of turn against the humans.

I'm not saying JC doesn't know what he's doing - this is a good movie and a huge success. Like you noted earlier, lets be honest about what the movie is and isn't.

Foxtrol · 03-01-2023 11:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061681#Comment_120061681

Parenting angle is new but a lot of that is still a rethread of how Jake acted in the first movie - this time being protective of his family rather than the wider tribe and then how the kids acted was very similar to what Jake experienced.

My point was that for both Maverick and this there is a huge element of nostalgia/copying of the originals that played a part in their success - having agreed with all of the other points you noted as factors like the visuals, spectacle etc.

As you said, many sequels do this - I don't understand why it seems to be a sore point to call it out specifically for these two movies.

Foxtrol · 04-01-2023 12:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062140#Comment_120062140

Feel your confusion is coming from the fact that I'm not trying to argue anything, I'm just stating my opinion on the movie with examples.

It is a weird one, as I'm not saying the movie is bad or anything like that - I said it was pretty good but has flaws, which most seem to agree with.

Seems a few of us have our opinions flipped from what is usual on threads about other franchise blockbusters - with others giving more leeway to this one and/or me giving less.

pixelburp · 04-01-2023 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062541#Comment_120062541

Think we've gone in circles a bit but what has been noted already is how this film has drawn particular and vocal criticism for either not being "memorable" or recycling old ideas - like there's some determination to downplay or dismiss the box office success. As I said, the MI series basically reuses the same plot each time and nobody cares or comments.

So even though sequels do this all the time, Avatar 2 is getting slammed for special criticism. In fact I'd be so cheeky, based on our previous ~~fights~~ chat 🤭, as to suggest were this about a MCU film and folks criticising a sequel repeating itself, you'd be on the thread wrapping our knuckles 🤪

johnny_ultimate · 04-01-2023 5:11pm

Given the continued pace at which thing is making money, it's not out of the question that this will make it into the top five highest-grossing films of all time - just needs to make it a little bit beyond $2 billion. If so, Jim Cameron would have three of the top five spots, which is quite extraordinary.

I know it's all sort of meaningless when you get to this sort of budget level (apparently the film is just about at the break-even point with $1.4-1.5 bn - LOL) and such absurdly high box office numbers, but it's still a fascinating and unique phenomenon to behold. The man's success is kinda mind-boggling, even allowing for the mega-budget blank cheques he has been afforded.

pixelburp · 04-01-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065282#Comment_120065282

Is he THE blank cheque director? Like, is there a director whose career has had so many, the budgets so large, with those subsequent films succeeding. I don't think Cameron has had to compromise his vision once since ... Uhhh. Ever, maybe?

johnny_ultimate · 04-01-2023 5:52pm

I'd say you could count Spielberg - cheques aren't always quite as big there, but he's cashed them in for far more varied projects :) Christopher Nolan would be the only real other candidate.

As an aside, I see True Lies appears to have been added to Disney+. Delighted, as I haven't seen that since I was very young and it's been frustratingly hard to find in decent quality in recent times.

pixelburp · 04-01-2023 6:01pm

I was going to say Spielberg but he has had some notable flops and failures like 1941 and Hook. He certainly has been able to keep getting projects greenlit mind you. Good shout on Nolan, though I'd argue Cameron got his blank chequebook quicker than Nolan managed - even if the latter has been more proficient.

Fred Astaire · 04-01-2023 7:17pm

I saw this in IMAX 3d in BFI. Jesus F*cking Christ. Unbelievable. Omniplex in Cork would be my usual go to and I was dying to see this but then I heard the Maxx screenings were in 2d I decided I'd wait until I was in London.

I utterly loved it. Pandora is just to easy to get lost in that I could have happily sat there for another three hours. The first act is a little messy as Cameron catches everyone up and sets the scene for this movie. And on rewatch and not in that environment I might think that some time could be shaved off the middle act (because obviously a lot of that underwater exploration is clearly meant for proper IMAX 3D viewing). But when I saw it, that middle act - I wanted as much time as possible there. I'm totally blown away.

One thing I really appreciated, especially when so many blockbusters are chock full of quips now, is that the movie was so earnest. Thankfully, not every bloody story beat or interaction or line of dialogue was undercut with some cynical quip. Just this refreshing sincerity to the whole thing that was really really appreciated by this viewer anyway. The story isn't the most complex but it doesn't need to be.

The final act is James Cameron back doing what he is most known for - crafting sensational action set pieces. Unquestionably one of the best action set pieces of the last decade at least. Nobody does them better.

sherrupyew · 05-01-2023 12:00am

Completely agree with the poster above regarding the film's unashamed earnestness. There's a romanticism here that is sorely lacking from most modern blockbusters.

I watched the movie for a second time today. It makes for a great rewatch. Viewing for the first time, the "OMG" nature of the visuals is so overwhelming its a bit distracting at times. That effect disappears during a second viewing. I laughed, I cried. It's an easy movie to love.

The only negative was the man next to me who kept loudly sucking each of his fingers after every mouthful of popcorn.

I sincerely hope this standard can be maintained for future Avatar films.

Foxtrol · 06-01-2023 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065139#Comment_120065139

I was just as 'cheeky' having mentioned the exact same thing in my earlier response to johnny_ultimate.

If an MCU sequel had even a tiny portion of same copying from the original you and others would be burning the director at the stake for laziness.

Not sure how we ended up switching our normal viewpoints, maybe it is down to me having higher hope of what could have been possible for the plot with Avatar given there was only one movie in 13 years, with endless narrative routes that could be explored in a sequel, and feeling disappointed with what was 80% reheating version of the original.

With MCU I am probably generally more understanding because of the 100+ hours of movies and shows that there will be some overlap, especially given that they are somewhat restricted by the source material. It is much harder to do something unique there so 'slamming' those movies when it isn't there always seems to me like complaining that the sky is blue.

pixelburp · 06-01-2023 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074391#Comment_120074391

Well, the difference here comes down to how I don't fundamentally believe the sequel is that much of a rehash that the joins showed. When push comes to shove; not to the extent you say, or that it deserves singling out against the rest of the industry. Mostly by dint of the characterisation changes and differences that were, TBH, much more interesting than the original's reheated Dances With Wolves storyline; the A-to-B plotyfila don't bother me so much.

It was a bit undercooked but the Quaritch & Spider subplot was really interesting, and bordered on nuanced in places. I'm guessing Cameron had been thinking about fatherhood when he sat down and wrote the script 'cos the only way the story could have made it louder was if there were neon signs!

As to the MCU? Well no I wouldn't burn a director at the stake for a rehashed plot - mostly because we've had sequels recycling already. I think you'll find my complaints about the MCU are fairly consistent at this stage 😉

pixelburp · 06-01-2023 4:18pm

BTW, this overtook Top Gun: Maverick the other day; now sits at $1.5 billion worldwide. No idea if it's showing any signs of slowdown at the box-office.

silverharp · 06-01-2023 4:27pm

its opening in more screens this week

Foxtrol · 06-01-2023 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074448#Comment_120074448

For MCU, the mere presence of a large CGI battle in the finale draws complaints, even though it is an element of practically every blockbuster. Avatar goes far, far beyond that - though it also follows the original Avatar with finales that include a large CGI battle. I'm sure the response will be that 'well Avatar had a good CGI battle' but that isn't the bar that is set for MCU, again the mere inclusion of it is enough to bring on ire.

I take your statement of your belief in good faith but given what I see as the pernickety standards you and others tend to set for other movies I can only believe there are outside factors that must be impacting your opinion, either being more understanding to this or harsher to MCU. I similarly strongly feel that the rehash here goes far beyond the norm in sequels, I provided a list that ranged from core elements to more minor things, but I've also admitted what there are likely similar outside factors at play for me, impacting my opinion to be opposite to my norm.

Agree we're going round in circles and not more left to say. Maybe we take this potential newly found self awareness into how we judge the many upcoming movies in the MCU and Avatar franchises.

pixelburp · 06-01-2023 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074841#Comment_120074841

The difference between MCU CGI finales and Avatar 2s own are not a problem of the tool, but the execution and prowess thereof. Always has been and would never blame the CGI in of itself, or the artists behind it, but how and where its used - or indeed who directs those scenes. Or doesn't, as we know with "PreVis". Pillorying "CGI finale" is just shorthand for something larger - and outside the topic of this thread really.

So yes, I'll continue to trash MCU finale's while they remain shíte, and while James Cameron shows us how well they can sing when a master - and not a harangued, pressured and undersold render farm - conducts the work.

sherrupyew · 06-01-2023 7:07pm

While we're on the topic of MCU Vs Avatar approach. Here's a very interesting thread:

https://twitter.com/metaplexmovies/status/1611030533986729986?t=9x2vjfcfN5IbGeQnWCfXHA&s=19

Essentially, the films are made in very different ways. MCU films are mostly designed shot-by-shot before they are filmed, even without director involvement. Avatar is driven by performance and direction first, and the visual choices are then built around that. This is more reminiscent of old-school blockbuster filmmaking. More room for improv and spontaneity, with an emphasis on emotion.

Not dumping on MCU, I find the films can be fun. But I do find for my tastes, they lack dramatic tension as the constraints are very apparent. I was not aware of how little power Marvel directors have in shaping the visual outcome. This hyper-controlled approach has served them well until now, but I think this is now what people are referring to when they talk of "Marvel fatigue".

I would love to see MCU absorb some of the lessons on this from Avatar and not be so risk-averse. I watched Wakanda Forever and was amazed by how bad the lighting was. I looked it up and it turns out this is in part due to Marvel's standardized low contrast filming specifications, which enables a faster/cheaper CGI pipeline. Would love to see them let go of some of these constraints and let good filmmakers inject a bit of soul and creativity into the proceedings.

johnny_ultimate · 06-01-2023 7:08pm

If an MCU finale ever features a series of shots as incredible as the ones in which yer man loses his arm in this one, then we can talk :)

SuperBowserWorld · 06-01-2023 7:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120075291#Comment_120075291

Yep! The build up to that was shocking and the payoff was worth it.

I bet he will be back. (I'll be back 😉)

Moby dick.

pixelburp · 06-01-2023 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120075291#Comment_120075291

What astounded and delighted most was after wondering "wait, they're not going to rip it off and show it? They wouldn't, would they??"...

... They did!

johnny_ultimate · 06-01-2023 7:19pm

The cut to the final wide shot in that sequence may just be my favourite edit of 2022.

Foxtrol · 06-01-2023 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120075254#Comment_120075254

I should buy a lotto ticket tonight...

I'm sure the response will be that 'well Avatar had a good CGI battle' but that isn't the bar that is set for MCU, again the mere inclusion of it is enough to bring on ire.

Visually I agree the finale in Avatar 2 was great, however it contained an enormous plot hole that took away some of the enjoyment for me - where the hell the island tribe went to. They were a key part of the battle and then just totally conveniently disappeared without any sort of attempt at an explanation. It wasn't as if there wasn't plenty of fat in the movie that they could have cut if necessary to give 30 seconds to make the finale make sense.

pixelburp · 06-01-2023 8:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120075613#Comment_120075613

I think Avatar 2 had a good finale - the CGI was immaterial. That's the difference I'm trying to get across; what happened, why did it happen - not how was it made.

The disappearing tribe was a flaw, and a weird one at that. I suspect it's something left on the cutting room floor, or "explained" by the ring of fire that trapped the Silly family (though I think that happened long after the attack started).

I'd be shocked if someone as detail oriented as Cameron just forgot.

Foxtrol · 06-01-2023 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120075287#Comment_120075287

I dont think the lesson is to be less risk averse. MCU's worst movies for most have been when they've given directors more freedom, e.g., Eternals and Thor 3. The problem for superhero movies is that for the most part the audience knows the main characters wont be dying, while in Avatar everyone was fair game, given most of the audience came out not knowing the name of most characters.

Interesting choice for the tweet to include two shots from Endgame as an example of a film with lack of emotion. During my packed screening of Avatar 2 I didn't hear a single crowd reaction and no videos have popped up of them either. However every Endgame screening I went to plus numerous videos online included real raw emotion from the audience - be it happiness or sadness. Similarly with the finale of Infinity War, the other shots in the tweet, I heard far more audience reactions.

Again, no arguments that visually Avatar 2 easily beats MCU movies but it isn't too surprising given he has been working on it for 13 years and had a far larger budget for CGI. The two franchises are really apples and oranges so there isn't really that much to be gained by trying to play them against each other.

Avatar 2

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