Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Lost Ormond · 02-01-2023 09:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057503#Comment_120057503

I think it has to. If you want to think Ireland are as good as people have said they are then they have to show it at a world cup. we have never won a knock out game, the number of decent performances for ireland across all world cups can barely be counted on 1 hand.

a world cup is bloody important. It may be a recent invention but its the only chance to really say you are best in the world.

Tests are important and the wins over NZ are top class and nothing diminishes them but beating the All Blacks in a world cup would be something else. We have had four 6 nations titles in just over a decade and we only have 14 titles since start of competition.

Clegg · 02-01-2023 09:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057551#Comment_120057551

It doesn't guarantee us anything, you're right.

But Sexton missing a few Six Nations games doesn't give us any sort of benefit further down the road either. It's not a blessing in disguise which is the original point made.

We have an excellent chance of winning this particular Six Nations considering how the home fixtures fall. I would much rather we have a Sexton led Ireland for this tournament and give ourselves the best chance possible of a victory.

aloooof · 02-01-2023 09:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057582#Comment_120057582

Tbh, I could see some latent benefit to having non-Sexton 10’s starting this 6 Nations and beyond.

But I’d agree that I don’t think it’d benefit us more towards a the RWC than if we had Sexton starting and happened to win the 6 Nations. No disagreement there

Andy Farrell has done brilliantly for Ireland, but you’d imagine a 6 Nations victory is still high up on his list of goals.

Former Former Former · 02-01-2023 11:00PM

Again, not-Sexton started two games in last year's 6N and two of the November tests just gone.

Lack of game time for the alternatives is not the problem. It just isn't, and it never has been.

TRC10 · 02-01-2023 11:38PM

Ireland need to win the Grand Slam this year. We've made huge strides over the last 18 months, but ultimately, we've won nothing this cycle. Winning a Grand Slam is imperative to Ireland's development going into the World Cup (which is the most important event in rugby).

The idea that Sexton's loss is a "blessing" is utter rubbish. He's the best 10 in Ireland by a country mile, and losing him just massively hinders our chances of winning the 6N. There is zero evidence that sacrificing a 6N in a world cup year in order to "build depth" leads to winning a world cup.

I feel like people have an overinflated sense of just how good we are right now. The gap between us and the Waleses, Englands and Australias of this world isn't as big as we'd like to think. Ireland aren't so far ahead of the rest that we can sacrifice a whole 6N playing a mish mash of players and then just turn it on again in September and win a world cup. We need to keep up our momentum, keep improving and keep winning.

And besides, Carbery has started loads of starts for Ireland since he returned from his injury. (Japan, USA, Argentina, France, Italy, NZ* and Fiji). The fact that people still trot out the incredibly lazy and inaccurate "he hasn't gotten enough games" argument, is mind blowing.

*didn't start but played 60 minutes

Neil3030 · 02-01-2023 11:48PM

K.

Podge_irl · 03-01-2023 12:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057404#Comment_120057404

What mistake is that?

If Sexton doesn't start Carbery is going to and the man has 37 caps ffs. Burns and Carty have a bucketful of caps between them but have been deemed not good enough. At this stage the only possibility who could maybe take advantage from the gametime is Crowley but even he has a start against Aus already. And frankly we're almost definitely not beating the ABs or France with him at 10 anyway.

There is no upside to missing Sexton. We just get a glimpse into the dropoff we'll experience when he retires.

Lil Fred · 03-01-2023 12:39AM

Is there a definitive update on SeXtons injury? I am seeing a lot of meaninglessness here

molloyjh · 03-01-2023 01:02AM

TRC is right. We’ve won nothing under Farrell. The RWC draw and schedule absolutely f*cos us too. We can’t manage our squad as easily as the others on our side of the QFs. We’re up against it to win the RWC too. Ultimately a tenure is defined by what was won in the period. If we win nothing at all then that’s a massive failing. NZ, France, England and Wales have all won something in this cycle. SA can at least say they are the reigning World Cup Champions. We have nothing. We need to win something. And we’ve a better shot at winning this 6Ns than the upcoming RWC.

Dubinusa · 03-01-2023 01:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056764#Comment_120056764

Yawn!!! Irelands next hope is .....an ex Leinster player. 37 caps! And still..... he's behind an elderly out half. Carberry has taken Munster to such great heights. Get real.

Sexton is on his last season. We need him, whether you like him or not. Today, Sexton is still our out half. Carberry wouldn't get a look if he was playing elsewhere.

ersatz · 03-01-2023 02:40AM

Winning a knockout in the WC is definitely required for Ireland to belong in the top 4 or 5 in the world. We need to win more than we have historically across the board. 3 grand slams is a poor return, the likes of England and France will rarely go more than a decade without one and their best teams win a few. At this stage not progressing in the WC is evidence of a deeper issue.

Joe’s legacy was consistent high performance and genuinely competing at the top, building on that means slams, championships, triple crowns and WC knockouts as expectations rather than hopes.

AbusesToilets · 03-01-2023 08:53AM

I'd like to see us try other players for kicking duties. If the biggest knock against an OH is his poor kicking percentage, then have someone else kick, and focus on the positives they bring.

Former Former Former · 03-01-2023 10:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058225#Comment_120058225

Scan yesterday, update today.

Shehal · 03-01-2023 11:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057324#Comment_120057324

You do realise im talking about 2019 Ntamack not 2022? In 2019 they were picking Zack Holmes and even Thomas Ramos ahead of him at 10 at Toulouse...

Shehal · 03-01-2023 11:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057335#Comment_120057335

Im not saying play him instead of Sexton, If Sexton is fit he starts, but if he's out I'd rather us take a punt on Crowley rather than the safe option and back a 10 who will never be any more than just adequate.

Shehal · 03-01-2023 11:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058031#Comment_120058031

No one is ovrinflating, the ranking reflect reality of where Ireland are.

Podge_irl · 03-01-2023 11:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058883#Comment_120058883

For what its worth, I thought something similar about Harry Byrne a year or two ago and boy was I wrong.

irelandrover · 03-01-2023 11:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058883#Comment_120058883

But that is clearly what farrel is trying. Trying frawley at 10 when he doesn't play there for his club. Throwing crowley in ahead of starting players for their provinces.

Picking crowley/frawley ahead of burns/carty/Byrne is exactly what you want and it's what Farrell is doing.

But he also needs to give carbery gametime as he is the current number two.

snotboogie · 03-01-2023 11:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058406#Comment_120058406

Joes record against competitive teams at the World Cup was 3 wins and 3 loses. We lost to Japan under him and got annihilated by a very ordinary Argentina team. His World Cup record is well below par.

Former Former Former · 03-01-2023 12:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058883#Comment_120058883

We absolutely should not be "taking a punt" on players at test level.

Let them prove their worth and earn the jersey, it's the only sane way to do it.

Shehal · 03-01-2023 12:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058906#Comment_120058906

@irelandrover He is trying it, im not criticising Farrell at all for his selection and if anything I have a lot of admiration for him in this regard, my opinions were mainly a response to the fans on here who think Crowley shouldn't start because he hasnt had enough time at 10. Same can be said about Frawley. At the moment maybe but if Sexton is out I would rather we take a gamble on Crowley for instance than Carbery.

@Podge_irl I did too but I think injuries have played a massive role in his lack of progression rather than him not being good enough. If he can stay fit and get a run of games I wouldnt count him out yet as he has the ability.

sydthebeat · 03-01-2023 12:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059017#Comment_120059017

A very ordinary Argentina that were beating the eventually winners of the competition, new Zealand, until the 60th min in the pool stage, and were the only team apart from south Africa to keep the score within 10 points of the all blacks, who were the run away winners of the competition??

Who's out half finished the competition as highest scorer and the team who scored the most tries in the competition apart from the all blacks and Australia?

That average Argentina?

Irelands problem in that rwc was the game against France where both teams basically knocked each other out, such was the intensity of the game. Neither team could build themselves back up for the week after, with France shipping 62 points against the ABs and Ireland being asleep for the first 30 mins of them Argentina game.

phog · 03-01-2023 12:46PM

In 2020 - excluding the EI tour, Ireland played 13 games.

Five 6Ns
Five games in NZ summer tour
Three AIs

Sexton featured in 8 games, starting 7
Carbery featured in 12 games, starting 3
Frawley started both the NZM games
Crowley featured in two games, started one
Carty benched in one
R Byrne benched in one

Unless Farrell has a major U Turn on his selections then the order of his Outhalf selection is fairly easy to call - Sexton, Carbery and whoever is available from Frawley/Crowley and then break glass.

molloyjh · 03-01-2023 01:05PM

I think some people need to cool their jets on Crowley as well. There’s definitely a shiny new toy element to how some speak of him. He has potential to be good but not much more than that right now. He wasn’t great vs Ulster at the weekend and hasn’t actually played a whole lot at 10 this season. He still has a lot to learn. And he needs to do that at Munster before Ireland start to bump him up the pecking order any further. I have yet to see him run a back line well against half decent opposition. Unless he can do that and until he does then he doesn’t deserve to be ahead of Carbery who can at least do a passable job there in green.

snotboogie · 03-01-2023 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059090#Comment_120059090

They put in a decent shift against the All Blacks but got easily beaten when it mattered. Australia walked all over them in the semi final. That Argentina team were nothing special. The excuses made regarding the injuries for Schmidt were ridiculous, we were pathetic against Argentina.

03-01-2023 01:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059309#Comment_120059309

Beating Australia shows just how world class our pack are. Gibson Park was relatively poor trying to fill a role he has some experience of but with an outhalf he had no experience of and who had little experience themselves. Crowley was fine in the context of where he is as a developing player, but poor in terms of what a tier 1 team should anticipate and expect from a starting outhalf. Our backline had no continuity, possession continually broke down on or behind the gainline and at times it looked like Crowley was being intentionally bypassed by those around him.

Am yet to see anything to suggest he's an international class outhalf but he has loads of time on his side. That lack of international quality covers every prospect bar Carbery as things stand. It's not just about finding an outhalf - they need to be good enough to start or finish for one of the best teams in the world. We've been unlucky but it's also a development hole that should have been managed better.

Often wonder what would have happened had Ringrose been developed as an outhalf.

Shehal · 03-01-2023 01:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059427#Comment_120059427

Well it was his first start in test rugby which he didn't even know about until about an hour before kick off, if people expected him to just seamlessly slot in for Sexton then they set the bar unrealistically high. Out team that day had lost their heads, I mean on 2 occasions going down the narrow side for a 1 V 1 when Ireland had a clear 2 man overlap on the other side due to Australia being down to 13 men shows they clearly weren't switched on.

Well you wouldnt see anything to suggest he's a test level 10 yet anyway as there's no way a 10 is going to magically slot in and look like that after 1 game. What he needs is a few runs off the bench in the 6N and maybe a start against Italy and build his minutes that way, if he starts then showing he's capable of that he might get a start possibly in the RWC warm up matches.

03-01-2023 01:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059391#Comment_120059391

If you look at the injury profile of world cup winning teams, they generally tend to have excellent continuity throughout a tournament.

Teams that lose 2 - 3 key players suffer early exits.

We lost 5.

There is no asterix beside the results saying "Ireland only lost because O'Connell, Sexton, O'Brien, O'Mahony, Payne weren't available" but to suggest that those players wouldn't have made a difference is to imply that talent and experience have no bearing on results.

Do you think that talent and experience have no bearing in competitive sports? If so - please explain why with examples.

I'm only asking for examples because obviously the rest of us are being ridiculous - and you seemingly know so much better.

03-01-2023 01:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059458#Comment_120059458

I didn't have an issue with us going down the blindside - I like that Gibson Park is unconventional, it regularly catches teams out. We came exceptionally close let's not forget but fine - it didn't work out that time. He's produced plenty of scores for Leinster / Ireland by playing the unexpected option and I hope he keeps doing that. Being entirely conventional is what ultimately cost Joe Schmidt an early World Cup exit.

I've watched Crowley's Munster appearances. He looks hugely talented as a footballer, passer and runner but I haven't seen him control territory, pacing or space in a game at provincial or international level yet.

Nothing would please me more than for him to demonstrate all of those traits in the coming months - but until that happens I'd be wary of him taking the reigns in a world cup. I very, very much want to be proven wrong. I'd love to have egg on my face on this one - but it has to happen first.

Akrasia · 03-01-2023 01:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057421#Comment_120057421

But these are unrealistic hopes. Sexton is unlikely to play much role between now and the end of the 6 nations assuming he has a fracture from that collision at the weekend

But even if he was fit, his record of staying fit for consecutive games is very poor. It's very unlikely that he would be able to get through even the pool stages of the RWC without getting hurt, never mind the intensity of a QF vs France or NZ.

Ireland need to have backup at 10 who are fully up to speed and match ready. Undercooked 10s in the RWC are the difference between winning a game, and getting hammered

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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