World Cup 2022 - Team and Match Discussion

ShamoBuc · 20-12-2022 05:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018773#Comment_120018773

To be fair, the ref was literally looking straight at him when he threw the ball away over to the side of the penalty area..... Ref did nothing....... French player fetches the ball and duly misses.....next French penalty, more antics, ...... the ref Then books him.

The ref should have booked him the first time - he didn't.

And I'm glad Argentina won - no narrative, just a simple fact.

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 06:53PM

Posted this on wrong thread. Messi got his world cup but again could of went either way, gave up leads twice. Messi played technically very well for the whole game, but when France pulled them back his response as a leader did nothing to change my mind on him in that regard. Argentina composed themselves well in extra time, and it was a team effort, and Messi contributed and got the goal, as I said his technical ability shone.

But had the penalty shootout gone the other way, he would be rightfully criticised for not leading the charge to counter the pressure they came under, growing in stature and forcing his presence on the game. It's in those sort of moments, in combative gung ho fashion, Maradona rose to the occasion and took the fight to the opposition by himself. He grew taller, and the bigger the occasion and more pressure his team came under, Maradona got better. That was the mark of his greatness. He could force his will on a game.

When comparing them, you'd say Messi was slightly the better dribbler and goalscorer, Maradona the better playmaker and passer. But your splitting hairs either way. They are eerily similar in their attributes. But when it comes to presence, character and leadership, taking hold of a game, Maradona is miles ahead. And for many that will always separate them.

Maradona was the small kid, with a huge heart, that he wore on his sleeve, and it showed. They're both the two greatest with Cruyff, but Maradona carried that something extra special imo

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 06:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015836#Comment_120015836

Ronaldo should be in a debate with the great goalscorers, not one with Messi, Maradona, Cruyff and the truely great all rounded players who were the fulcrum of their teams in the centre.

He was a goalscoring outlet who relied on others to create, the true greats were the creators, goal scorers, playmakers, who had that all round ability.

I don't see how someone who was so limited in so many technical facets of the game can be in the conversation, no matter how many goals they scored. The same way Gerd Muller isn't in the conversation, when we're discussing the very greatest in the game.

But as others have said, it's positive that the conversation will now move to Messi v Maradona. But I'll never understand why Cruyff gets relegated to a level just outside this. He's up there with those two, they are the 3 true greats

Did you smash it · 20-12-2022 07:02PM

I don’t know people mean when they say maradona is better than Messi. Like if they were magically transported to a pitch where they were both in their prime and playing against each other that maradona would outperform Messi? Or what do they mean?

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 07:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019309#Comment_120019309

They are similar in playing ability, but Maradona carried a presence and pensonality that could elevate the most average side to greatness. Carry them on his back and take the game to the opposition single handedly, a towering presence who could nearly will his team over the line. Messi doesn't carry this presence or leadership

WesternZulu · 20-12-2022 07:42PM

I think ability wise Maradona and Messi are probably inseparable.

However, Messi has performed to such a high standard way longer that Maradona ever had. For that reason alone I believe he is the better player.

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 08:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019452#Comment_120019452

Maradona performed to an elite level for nearly 20 years, despite lacking the science and conditioning of today, and drug abuse, that was how talented he was. Unheard of then, and to achieve what he did was phenomenal. Miracle level stuff

~Rebel~ · 20-12-2022 08:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019612#Comment_120019612

20 years is a major stretch. Would say more like 10, from Boca till the end of his time at Napoli and his drug ban from football… maybe a hair earlier to include some of his latter Argentinos time, but that’s tougher to argue as elite.

Did you smash it · 20-12-2022 09:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019700#Comment_120019700

In fairness to maradona he won South American player of the year in 1995. I don’t know the story behind that but I’d like to hear it.

20 years is still a stretch

~Rebel~ · 20-12-2022 09:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019717#Comment_120019717

I suppose it depends on what we’re calling ‘elite’. Would we say Alvarez was elite winning the same award in 2021? I’d have said Elite meant playing exceptionally well, at the very top level.

Brian? · 20-12-2022 09:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019717#Comment_120019717

I’m surprised myself. His senior career was 21 years. Debatable how much was at the top level, but that’s still pretty impressive given his problems.

Did you smash it · 20-12-2022 09:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019744#Comment_120019744

Actually I’m wrong, he came second in 1995 to Enzo Francesoli

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 09:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019700#Comment_120019700

I said nearly. I suppose I'm talking 77-92. 15 years then, with patches of greatness afterwards. Without the science and conditioning of today, and drug abuse, the longevity argument can't be used against him is my point

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 09:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019744#Comment_120019744

Answer= genius.

He didn't even need his pace to run a game from the centre, passing and dictating the tempo of a game with his eyes closed. Spreading the ball and playmaking at will. Unheard off. Could of stood in the centre and did the same at 44

martyos121 · 20-12-2022 10:53PM

Everyone is always very quick to use Maradona’s drink and drug habits to highlight his talent in playing so well despite it. Nobody ever mentions the fact that he wasn’t even close to being the only footballer heavily abusing one or both, and the fact that he was coming up against these players regularly.

Maradona was before my time so I can’t comment too much on his ability, but I can’t actually fathom someone better at football than Messi, and he’s been at that high level for such a long time now. By all accounts, Maradona didn’t quite match his longevity.

It doesn’t matter a jot who’s actually “the GOAT” though. It’s always going to be subjective.

It absolutely is not Cristiano Ronaldo though, there just isn’t an argument to be made for him anymore.

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 11:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020179#Comment_120020179

How many Italian defenders, pure hatchet men in the 80s, with 5 man defences, were on drugs? And these were the greatest defenders we've seen. Against a man in a subpar team, effectively playing with a medicine ball. On mud pitches where nothing favoured the attacker! Could Messi do it, I'd genuinely have my doubts. Yes, THATS how good Diego was!

The little man with the big heart. A giant amongst mere mortals. Cometh the hour, cometh the man! Your nation needs you, enter Maradona!

Bleating Lamb · 20-12-2022 11:37PM

I think something that needs to be taken into account when comparing Maradona to Messi is the state of the pitches in Maradona's day.To see his close control on pitches that amounted to cabbage patches was astounding.Another player with incredible close control on those type of pitches was Best.

Apart from maybe the first few years of his career Messi has enjoyed the advantage of playing on virtual carpets in comparison to the pitches Maradona played on.

Another huge hindrance to Maradona and likes of Best for that matter was fact they got kicked up and down pitches by brute defenders from one end of the Season to the other.

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 11:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020297#Comment_120020297

I agree, but to be fair to Messi, he would of been up for a battle. I'd just be surprised if he could hold his level to Maradona or Cruyff's form under those conditions. But I wouldn't put it past him in fairness

The Golden Miller · 20-12-2022 11:48PM

Cruyff, Messi, Maradona. Hopefully the general consensus will remember these 3 names above all others in time. We 3 kings!

WesternZulu · 21-12-2022 08:29AM

You can say all you want about pitches, tackles, better defenders etc. but the one thing Maradona hadn't to contend with was better tactics and systems.

I think it was easier for individual players to stand out back in the day because they the game was more frantic. Something which is often overlooked when taking about Messi Vs Maradona.

Look at highlights from even the 1994 WC and it's astonishing how much time and space Maradona had on the ball. I'm sure it was even more obvious back in the late 70s and 80s. I know you can say that's the sign of a good player but that sort of luxury won't be afforded to a player today.

21-12-2022 08:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020291#Comment_120020291

These arguments are essentially pointless as there are to many variables in how the game was played at the time. I think you’re being harsh on Messi though, not sure there can be any doubt that he could have played at anytime, as the guy is a genius (as was Diego of course).

slightly off subject but Martinez must be the biggest prat in the world, consistently mocking Mbappe who scored four past him. The argie team(s) in general just seem so unlikeable!

The_Kew_Tour · 21-12-2022 10:21AM

To knock Messi or Maradona would be a sin, but also to not put Ronaldo right up there would be laughable too.

Actually the Brazilian one also deserves be high up.

Only a handful have achieved what these have. That makes any of them remarkable and its all subjective.

Just enjoy being alive to see them all.

jacool · 21-12-2022 02:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021800#Comment_120021800

..... and has scored more goals in World Cup Final games than anyone else in the history of the competition.

Did you smash it · 21-12-2022 02:17PM

The really scummy thing is Martinez was consoling Mbappe at the end.

if you’re a shithouse, you’re a shithouse but don’t be two faced

21-12-2022 02:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021983#Comment_120021983

Agreed, if that’s who you are, at least be consistent.

It’s just such a strange person to go for, he didn’t cause any controversy, produced one of the truly great performances yet he’s constantly having a dig at him, it’s pathetic to be honest.

21-12-2022 03:36PM

No problem with Martinez being a wind up merchant. His antics, not to mention outstanding saves, were definitely a factor in missed pens in the WC. He'll go down as a legend.

Mbabbe and France already have a recent WC so little sympathy for them really.

21-12-2022 03:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022267#Comment_120022267

There may be history there from the last wc, not sure?

I thought the Argies were poor to be celebrating in the Dutch faces after their penalty shootout. Then I saw what the Dutch were doing, so they fully deserved it.