Are we getting value for money from our state institutions (RTE, civil service ect)?

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 2:24pm #1

I personally have worked for the HSE in a biochemistry capacity and during my time there I observed waste, waste and more waste. There were examples of whole families working there who barley had a junior cert yet worked in the job due to well placed relatives. I have friends who are camera operators in RTE and they describe colossal waste there too. Lastly a cousin of mine works in a certain civil service department and told us that two (relatives of the manager) came in drunk following a liquid lunch and started an argument. They were just moved to a different department. What is the worst story you have heard in this regard?

In Ireland we are facing huge rental costs, rising energy bills and other rising costs. Should we begin asking if we're getting value for money for these institutions in Ireland?

Boggles · 24-11-2022 2:27pm

There were examples of whole families working there who barley had a junior cert yet worked in the job due to well placed relatives

In biochemistry?

Fair play to them.

Dodge · 24-11-2022 2:30pm

I’d say you’re the first to ever ask OP. Fair play for such an original thought

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915655#Comment_119915655

Yep actually. One guy worked in the lab at Jame's who wasn't qualified to work in that lab. His aunt got him the job of course.

Boggles · 24-11-2022 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915676#Comment_119915676

He barely had a Junior Cert and was doing Biochemistry in Saint James.

Are you sure you are not mixing this up with the film Good Will Hunting?

nolivesmatter · 24-11-2022 2:35pm

There's waste, inefficiency, and incompetence everywhere you look, public and state. Infuriating as it can be it just seems to be inevitable when you're working with people at scale.

I Blame Sheeple · 24-11-2022 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915694#Comment_119915694

How much do you get paid by the Government to spread your incessant whataboutery on Boards?

Half of me wants to say that as a joke but the other half is genuinely curious if that's your profession.

It's almost like every thread that denounces a Government action, you're in it going "what about this and nooo that never happened, this is the real world!!!!!"

If you actually went outside and lived a life, like I've said before, you may experience some of the blatant cronyism and nepotism that floods our country and inhibits it from real progression ultimately.

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915694#Comment_119915694

Two separate stories. The families working in admin in the civil service had no junior cert. The technician had a biology degree, but no relevant training or education for biochemical assays.

JayRoc · 24-11-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915739#Comment_119915739

Did they do their job properly?

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915726#Comment_119915726

Indeed. I actually live in Germany now but the reputation they have of Irish government is corruption, nepotism and a swarm of people defending it. People like the one you quote are costing the state money because they hinder progress. I had one former colleague ask me "what exactly is wrong with getting my family a job in the HSE". Not once thinking or caring that they're denying others a fair chance.

Here's an article featuring proof of my assertions regarding the HSE. This is an old article but colleagues still working there assure me the same thing is happening.

The Irish Examiner has learnt that HSE staff in the mid-west region have expressed concern at how people who were taken on as temporary community welfare officers (CWOs) last year outside normal recruitment procedures were given new positions as clerical officers last month.

It is understood at least three people, who are closely related to long-serving HSE staff, have got jobs through this process.

“There is incredible bad feeling among staff at the moment. Morale in the HSE Mid-West region has hit rock bottom over this,” said one employee who wished to remain anonymous.

Community welfare officers, who are in the process of switching employment from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection as part of major reform of social services, feel particularly angered over the issue as they were not permitted to apply for the vacancies at clerical officer level.

“Some long-serving permanent staff would have liked the opportunity to relocate to another area in order to stay within the employment of the HSE but were not allowed to do so,” said another HSE worker.

Many existing HSE staff were incensed last summer after it emerged that temporary vacancies which arose in the HSE in Limerick and Cork were largely filled by spouses, children and friends of senior HSE employees without such positions being advertised publicly.

Boggles · 24-11-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915739#Comment_119915739

So when you said he barely had a junior cert you meant he had a degree in Biology? 😕

Also what would preclude someone from working in admin? Do you need a masters in admin or what?

Boggles · 24-11-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915726#Comment_119915726

lol

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915774#Comment_119915774

No, they were lazy and required far more training that was afforded to most people just to come up to competency. Do you see a problem that could potentially arise from hiring family members as a priority over ordinary people?

Cluedo Monopoly · 24-11-2022 2:52pm

I know a guy who works in a Revenue office. Long story short, he was a complete dosser, rude and was hated etc etc. Few complaints about him. Eventually a brave manager brought him through a PIP/grievance process. Very messy but he was backed to the hilt by his union. He kept his job but they came to an unofficial arrangement - he was moved to a new section and given no work and no interactions with work colleagues. Mutual agreement. He was happy to come in every day and read the paper or surf all day every day. They thought he might get the message and leave but he has been doing that for nearly a decade. He gets his increments as time passes but he has probably reached top of scale by now. A local 'legend' in that particular office. The manager that was brave enough to tackle it was passed over for promotion several times for rocking the boat it seems. I don't work in public sector so take the story whatever way you want. Very rare I imagine.

It's the senior civil servants I am more worried about. They are not accountable and halt progress. The permanent government like Watt.

In other news I applied for a new passport on Sunday and got it yesterday. Wow.

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915799#Comment_119915799

There were examples of whole families working there who barley had a junior cert yet worked in the job due to well placed relatives.

The bit above referred to the HSE. I actually posted an article about it.

Question for you. Do you see a problem or not with hiring family members into positions paid for by the taxpayer?

Boggles · 24-11-2022 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915836#Comment_119915836

I see absolutely no problem with hiring family members if they are qualified and able for the job and got it appropriately.

Also your article is from 2011. 😕

What was the follow up, was there investigations?

I Blame Sheeple · 24-11-2022 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915800#Comment_119915800

I'll take that as an admission of guilt so.

lol

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915877#Comment_119915877

Investigations? They know it happened. We don't need more money wasted. Either way your love of nepotism precludes an intelligent discussion on this issue. I remember talking to a Russian who seemed similar to your view points who defended Putin placing his family and friends in positions of power as "they were probably the best for the job". If you don't see a problem with it we can agree to disagree.

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915835#Comment_119915835

Yes there's plenty like that in the civil service. Usually a well placed relative protects them from loosing their job. I'm glad I'm not paying tax in Ireland anymore TBH.

Boggles · 24-11-2022 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915918#Comment_119915918

Huh?

I have been hired by family members in the past.

I remember talking to a Russian who seemed similar to your view points who defended Putin placing his family and friends in positions of power as "they were probably the best for the job". If you don't see a problem with it we can agree to disagree.

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915962#Comment_119915962

I'm sure you have. That's why this post touched a raw nerve I think. Best of luck to you.

24-11-2022 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058273197/are-we-getting-value-for-money-from-our-state-institutions-rte-civil-service-ect

Your post should really state:

Whats the worst story you've heard made up in this regard?

🙄

Also, let me clarify for you - the HSE is not part of the Civil Service.

Boggles · 24-11-2022 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915974#Comment_119915974

Why would working in family businesses touch a raw nerve?

You have an extremely strange opinion on this.

Sleepy · 24-11-2022 3:09pm

Of course there's a load of waste in the public sector. There's plenty of it in a lot of the private sector too. The key issues I see during my work with public sector bodies would include:

An inability to recruit good staff into skilled positions, public sector pay scales might be great for the low-level clerical admin positions when compared to private sector counter-parts but they're woefully uncompetitive in the technical roles. A majority of IT staff I've encountered in PS organisations are either graduates (who leave within a year or two for better pay in the private sector) or people who got placed in the IT department in the 80's because they were a hobbyist who had a Spectrum or Commodore machine at home. There are very few mid level to senior staff in these roles with relevant degree level qualifications.

Accountability (or being seen to "dot the i's and cross the t's" so that if anything goes wrong, it can't be pinned on you) has a huge impact on any PS project I've worked on (aside perhaps from the NTMA who didn't seem to have this culture IME). This blame culture often leads to huge amounts of time wasted in the attempt to be seen to do the right thing resulting in the classic case of the "meeting to set the agenda for the meeting about the meeting" when the actual meeting could have been covered in an exchange of emails.

Inability to shed poor performers. There are wastrels and layabouts in any large organisation but it's far, far easier for a private sector company to manage out an employee who isn't up to scratch than it is for the PS. A subset of this would be (and it's another effect of the stronger PS Unions) is the amount of employees in the PS with flexible / job-sharing / term-time type contracts which are inherently inefficient and avoided as such by the private sector. I'm not sure as to whether that's a criticism of the public sector for championing workers rights or the private sector for not measuring up in that regard though...

The simple reality that money spent by the Public Sector is never their own. An MD / CXO of a private sector company will always negotiate harder over a daily rate for a contractor or the cost of a new software package because the outcome of that negotiation is far more likely to impact on their profit, bonus or ability to negotiate their next raise. Those tendering for projects know this and, as such, you'll often find the rates quoted to the PS will be higher than the same project might be quoted for in the private sector.

Can the PS be more efficient? Yes. Can it ever be as efficient as the private sector? Probably not. Is any of that a good argument for out-sourcing all of these roles to the private sector or cutting their budgets so tax rates can be reduced? No.

JayRoc · 24-11-2022 3:11pm

"Two separate stories. The families working in admin in the civil service had no junior cert. The technician had a biology degree, but no relevant training or education for biochemical assays"

How many people in Ireland didn't sit the Junior Cert (or Inter Cert)? Very few considering everyone must attend school until the age of, what, 15?

So two of these outliers managed to pass the civil service exam and get CS jobs. But apparently they were "lazy" not incompetent or unqualified. Ok.

Tippman24 · 24-11-2022 3:22pm

I worked in the Revenue for years and will admit that we had our share of dossers, but in the main I would say that 99% of the staff did their job. It is the 1% that is the issue and I would say that it happens in the private sector also. I had one lad who just would not do anything, despite being passed over and not receiving increments, and it did not knock a breeze out of him. If he was on the Titanic he would not even look for a lifeboat as it would come under the concept called work. All that happened was that he was moved from section to section each time the opportunity arose. I was unfortunate to have him for a year but got him moved on. Staff in his general seating area would not answer his phone as all they got was a telling off from the caller about something that our lad was supposed to do, that never happened. The thing is that there is so much red tape involved in bringing a case that if you know that s/he will be somebody else's problem in a few months you wont pursue the matter. I had another case of a person who who would not come in, but eventually got her removed from the payroll, which caused a change in attitude with her, but the amount of work that had to be done to get to that point was unreal. Questioned about conversations with the staff member etc and what did I write down? when did i write it down?

steddyeddy · 24-11-2022 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916039#Comment_119916039

Yes they were indeed. Just as in Cluedo Monopoly's post about the dosser in Revenue. People can pass the exams and get selected and still be very lazy.

Mad_maxx · 24-11-2022 4:26pm

Civil service is full of pompous mediocrities

Floppybits · 24-11-2022 5:04pm

Currently contracting into the PS, have to say the people I am working with know their stuff and I haven't come across the lazy ones yet. I am sure there are some just been fortunate so far. I will say though they even though they know their stuff, they are not exactly killing themselves also the PS seems very regimented, like if there is an issue that you notice and could fix in a 2 minutes but you can't actually do the fix because you have to report it and then it gets sent off to somewhere else for them to do the fix and instead of being done in 2 minutes, you are looking at 2 or 3 days if lucky, most of the time you have to end up chasing whoever the issue was assigned to to get it fixed, which is a bit of a pain. In saying that I have seen that happen in the private sector as well.

As another poster pointed out above it is not the normal PS person that we should be worrying about it is the lack accountability to those in the Senior Positions like Watt that can delay improvements to services just because they may not like something about it or they don't get their own way.

JayRoc · 24-11-2022 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916120#Comment_119916120

Yes but my point is, what has being "lazy" got to do with apparently not having a junior cert?

You said that you know of two people who got civil service jobs, after passing the entrance exam and presumably the interview and recruitment process, who hadn't sat their junior cert.

Fair enough, says I. So what was your objection, that they were unqualified or incompetent? No, they were just "lazy". Anyone can be lazy. Including people with a Masters Degree. And they frequently are.

So why bring up their education since you admitted it didn't affect the quality of their work?

Your posts don't make sense.

One eyed Jack · 24-11-2022 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058273197/are-we-getting-value-for-money-from-our-state-institutions-rte-civil-service-ect

There were examples of whole families working there who barley had a junior cert yet worked in the job due to well placed relatives.

That’s quite possibly the most delicious irony I’ve seen in a while 😂

To address the broader question of whether or not the country is getting value for money from our public institutions, the answer could only be an emphatic yes. While there is undoubtedly nepotism, cronyism, mind-numbing bureaucratic nonsense, layers and layers of it in fact; none of those issues address the broader and more fundamental question of whether or not our public institutions provide value for money.

Considering what it could cost for the same services to be provided by the private sector, we really aren’t in any position to complain about whether or not we’re getting value for money when our public institutions are as poorly funded out of public funds as they are.

It’ll always be the case that some smartarse will point fingers and give examples of all sorts of issues, anecdotes, while ignoring the much greater picture and the levels of complexity involved in the running of the system as a whole.

In Ireland, no less than in Germany or anywhere else, people get the levels or quality of service they pay for, and in terms of our public institutions in Ireland, we pay a lot less than an economy the size of Germany. One will undoubtedly find examples of all the same issues which plague Irish public institutions in German institutions too if they were bothered, it stands to reason that of course you’re going to be agreeing with Germans taking a dump on Ireland instead of examining their own country’s problems.

eggy81 · 24-11-2022 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915800#Comment_119915800

What are you lolling at. You literally never agree with any fault anyone finds with anything related to public service here. It’s like nothing can ever be improved upon.

Boggles · 25-11-2022 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917340#Comment_119917340

The conspiracy theories.

Considering this whole thread is based on ones figments, it's fairly tough to improve on a fantasy.

Thelonious Monk · 25-11-2022 9:54am

Isn't the hiring process completely transparent in the irish public sector?

How would you get into a government department from knowing people?

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 10:39am

The Irish Examiner has learnt that HSE staff in the mid-west region have expressed concern at how people who were taken on as temporary community welfare officers (CWOs) last year outside normal recruitment procedures were given new positions as clerical officers last month.

It is understood at least three people, who are closely related to long-serving HSE staff, have got jobs through this process.

“There is incredible bad feeling among staff at the moment. Morale in the HSE Mid-West region has hit rock bottom over this,” said one employee who wished to remain anonymous.

Community welfare officers, who are in the process of switching employment from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection as part of major reform of social services, feel particularly angered over the issue as they were not permitted to apply for the vacancies at clerical officer level.

“Some long-serving permanent staff would have liked the opportunity to relocate to another area in order to stay within the employment of the HSE but were not allowed to do so,” said another HSE worker.

Many existing HSE staff were incensed last summer after it emerged that temporary vacancies which arose in the HSE in Limerick and Cork were largely filled by spouses, children and friends of senior HSE employees without such positions being advertised publicly.

Like this. I wont list the names of the workers given the jobs but if you check they're still there. Neither have the procedures changed.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916752#Comment_119916752

I think you're coming from a different point of view, thereby missing the central thesis of my argument. First of all do we agree that public services suffer from employees giving family members jobs as priority over the general public?

Thelonious Monk · 25-11-2022 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919061#Comment_119919061

there is no way you can offer family members jobs in the public service - are you actually being serious?

DellyBelly · 25-11-2022 11:02am

In answer to your question I would yes we are....

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919142#Comment_119919142

Hmm not sure where you're getting that from. Let's rephrase. Do you think someone interviewing a family member such as a son or daughter and awarding them a position in public service has chosen the best candidate?

Let's use real world examples. What are the chances of the sons and daughters in the extract below all being the best person for the job? Do you think that me disagreeing with this story below means that I think no relatives should work in the same organization. No, what I think shouldn't happen is family members being involved in the hiring process of other family members. That is fair no?

Three weeks ago, this newspaper revealed that the children of four managers in a Cork office and three children of managers in Limerick were appointed to non-advertised positions despite a national moratorium on recruitment.

This weekend, the Sunday Independent has learned the children of another three senior managers in Dublin were appointed to clerical grade-three positions on a temporary basis to aid in the administration of the Back to School Scheme. However, these people are still in their posts over a year later.

The individuals involved in the Dublin office are: Eoin Tighe, son of regional manager Rita Tighe; Grace Whittle, daughter of superintendent Joseph Whittle; and Mark Mulvihill, son of senior manager Noel Mulvihill.

Boggles · 25-11-2022 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919198#Comment_119919198

Article from 2010?

What exactly are you up to here? The forum is current affairs.

😕

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919218#Comment_119919218

Google is your friend here. 2022.

Irish Rail has settled a series of claims with a former procurement manager for an undisclosed sum after she made allegations of nepotism and bullying at the State company.

Suzanne Murphy claimed she was passed over for a permanent role despite being promised one at interview at a time when she said two family members of senior company staff with less experience than her were given permanent contracts.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 11:32am

And thesis from the National College Of Ireland, School of Business. 2022.

The aim of this study is to determine the existence of nepotism in Ireland today and it also looks to investigate whether it is an ethical practice or not. To achieve this study a survey consisting of fifteen questions relating to nepotism was issued as a data collecting method. They survey was distributed to a small population of seventy-two people whereby all of the responses were used and analysed to contribute to this study. As this research is both quantitative and qualitative in nature, one interview was also conducted in order to gain a better overview of the overall research topic. The results of the research revealed that nepotism does in fact still exist within Ireland, but the hypothesis of whether it is ethical remains unproven due to the interpretive nature of this study.

Boggles · 25-11-2022 11:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919271#Comment_119919271

Google is a search engine.

That case relates to some unfounded claims by a lady which turns out had nothing to do with her division.

Under cross-examination by Ms Burke, Ms Murphy accepted that this colleague did not report to the same line manager in procurement as she did.

“Mr Conlon could not have discriminated against you by promoting [the colleague],” Ms Burke said.

The company didn't give her fair procedure in her termination, so they paid up.

Are you just furiously googling Nepotism to try and back fill you claims?

Dodge · 25-11-2022 11:51am

I see people are mixing up civil service, semi state companies and private companies that at one time might have been one of the others again. Easy enough to do I suppose

FWIW the rules relating to recruitment in the civil service and general public service (local authorities etc) are very strict. There’s exams, interviews (with multiple people) and the higher up you go further rounds such as presentations, job simulation etc etc. panels are formed and people assigned off that

You can argue that has its own issues but it certainly removes all the nod and wink stuff that some here are talking about and there’s no way a family member would be allowed interview another.

For the record, former public servant, now in the private sector

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 11:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919339#Comment_119919339

B you have said on this forum that you have no problem with this sort of nepotism. So Why are you still talking and asking me to provide evidence of something you have no problem with?

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919344#Comment_119919344

Indeed I did mention I have a relative in the civil service. He is generally happy there but there is relatives of higher ups there causing problems. Do you think what happened in the HSE case I linked is still going on?

Boggles · 25-11-2022 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919361#Comment_119919361

What Nepotism? There was unfounded claims of Nepotism from a lady who clearly was not able to her job for various reasons.

And what I actually said was.

I see absolutely no problem with hiring family members if they are qualified and able for the job and got it appropriately.

Dodge · 25-11-2022 12:10pm

No idea about the HSE. Suggest you try and narrow your focus there if you believe it’s happening. Can only speak to the broader civil and public service as I’ve been involved in recruitment there (both sides) and have close family who still work there. Creating panels has issues, but nepotism isn’t one of them

In general, nepotism exists far more in private sector than public sector. Surely everyone can agree on that?

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 12:52pm

It depends on the country. I live in Germany and in the private sector (and especially the public sector) you declare a conflict of interest if in a recruitment position where a family member is applying. Does this happen in the public sector in Ireland?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919441#Comment_119919441

steddyeddy · 25-11-2022 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919429#Comment_119919429

Jesus B just read this thesis.

The aim of this study is to determine the existence of nepotism in Ireland today and it also looks to investigate whether it is an ethical practice or not. To achieve this study a survey consisting of fifteen questions relating to nepotism was issued as a data collecting method. They survey was distributed to a small population of seventy-two people whereby all of the responses were used and analysed to contribute to this study. As this research is both quantitative and qualitative in nature, one interview was also conducted in order to gain a better overview of the overall research topic. The results of the research revealed that nepotism does in fact still exist within Ireland, but the hypothesis of whether it is ethical remains unproven due to the interpretive nature of this study.

BrianD3 · 25-11-2022 1:08pm

The nepotism that I encountered in the PS mainly related to student jobs - third level students (who just happened to be children of senior staff members) would get these jobs without any advertising or interviews. The attitude was that it was ok because they were "only summer jobs". Yet these people clearly benefitted, student jobs were paid quite generously at the time and also these students gained experience that was denied to others. Some ended up getting permanent jobs after graduation with the experience probably helping.

This stopped when the financial crisis hit as students were no longer taken on or were not paid. If cheap labour was needed, Jobbridge interns were used.

In relation to permanent jobs, anyone who thinks that the interview board system in the PS can't be abused is naïve. Frist of all, a lot of the recruitment in the PS does not go through the public appointments service. Secondly, "independent" interview boards can be leaned on to favour a preferred candidate. Ireland is also a small country where a lot of people know each other. I'd say favouritism and lack of objectivity is more of an issue these days than blatant nepotism - things are somewhat more transparent now and it's probably a lot harder to get away with nepotism these days. But if people could get away with it they would do it. It is still regarded a a perk of a PS job by many and they bemoan the increased transparency

A recent example of nepotism in the Irish PS was the Coombe hospital distribution of Covid vaccines to family members of staff with plenty of clowns on this website justifying it with "would you rather the vaccines went in the bin" nonsense.

Are we getting value for money from our state institutions (RTE, civil service ect)?

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