Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

Foxtrol · 11-11-2022 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119465604#Comment_119465604

Had avoided the thread since the first trailer so just looking now at a few of the earlier posts.

There are plenty of large rivers in Africa and in the first movie we hear about and meet the 'River Tribe' several times and even see a giant river and waterfall, where they battle for the throne.

FunLover18 · 11-11-2022 9:17pm

I enjoyed it but it is over long and I can never get fully behind any movie that glorifies or romanticises monarchy.

Mbaku being king sets up an interesting dynamic, I understood from the first film thathe king/queen wears the mantle of Black Panther, T'Challa wearing it because of his father's age.

flazio · 11-11-2022 9:29pm

Definitely the best MCU film of 2022, but that's not exactly a very high bar.

Wright was absolutely fine and putting aside her personal choices, I think for the job she had, portraying Shuri, a young teenager who's had her whole family ripped away from her piece by piece, she did very well.

The middle of the film sagged a bit, after a pretty good Iron Man esque chase sequence, the pace went right out when they went under water, picked up with one of the better 3rd acts though.

7.5 maybe 8/10 from me.

billyhead · 11-11-2022 9:48pm

I presume you would have to have seen the 1st one before watching this.

Foxtrol · 11-11-2022 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863328#Comment_119863328

They explain enough that you could probably turn off your brain and follow the general story but aside from missing references the bigger issue would be that the story is so centered around grief that I doubt you'd relate to it never having seen the characters interacting prior to the death.

DrumSteve · 12-11-2022 2:24am

I actually quite enjoyed this.

The more serious tone actually worked to the benefit of the movie overall, rather than quips every 2 minutes.

Easily the strongest of the more recent offerings anyway.

pixelburp · 12-11-2022 7:42am

What has been the lead time between cinemas and streaming, I can't recall but it hasn't been that much. Unlikely I'll get to the cinema to see this but I'm presuming like the last few MCU flicks it'll be pushed into Disney+ with the same relative speed

flazio · 12-11-2022 8:00am

Eternals was released roughly the same time last year and appeared on D+ mid January so I'd expect the same for this. It's likely to do really well, so I expect it will be kept in cinemas longer and won't be rushed over as fast as Thor, Strange or Lightyear

Penn · 12-11-2022 10:10am

I thought it was an okay movie. Not as good as the first. Some really dumbass decisions made in it though.

Killing off Queen Ramonda was a huge mistake imo, unless Angela Bassett wanted the leave or something. Shuri didn't need it as she was still dealing with T'Challa's loss, and at the end she basically lets M'Baku become King which is another dumbass decision. I get that M'Baku became a good advisor and friend of T'Challa, but he's also leader of a tribe who up to about 6 years ago were never part of governing Wakanda, and given the political side of being King of Wakanda with how other nations want vibranium, M'Baku is not the right person to deal with that. Really should have kept the Queen alive, or at least say they're getting rid of the monarchy and having a ruling council with one from each tribe or something. Also, Okoye's supersuit is goddamn awful. Really overdesigned and just looks plastic. I think there was word she might be getting a TV show. For the love of f*ck get rid of that suit. Hell even Shuri's suit looks very overdesigned compared to T'Challa's. T'Challa's has intricate patterns in the suit, and there was an elegance in that. Shuri's just has a load of sh*te stuck onto it.

Namor was great, really charismatic and played the role brilliantly. I don't see why some of the other Atlanteans were on panels as main cast though, they barely had five lines of dialogue between them.

Riri Williams was decent too. Would look forward to seeing more of her.

Overall, a decent to good film. Not as good as the first, and the best bits all play to Coogler's strengths. But as with the first one the third act turns into a bit of a bland CGI-fest.

FunLover18 · 12-11-2022 10:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864277#Comment_119864277

I reckon it will drop on D+ just in time for Christmas

sydthebeat · 12-11-2022 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864277#Comment_119864277

40 days, gives or take

AMKC · 12-11-2022 4:00pm

Well not long out from seeing it. All I will say is its an excellent film. Will most definitely have to go and see it a second time its so worth it.

It has excellent special effects and a great story too.

A lot happens in it.

You also kind of feel sorry for the villian.

I definitely think it is set up for a third film.

Bring it on.

AMKC · 12-11-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861839#Comment_119861839

Na this is a much better far superior film. You will not be disappointed.

Cotts72 · 12-11-2022 7:55pm

Good movie and I'd put it on a par with the first. Thought run time was ok and some decent character development throughout..always great to see Winston Duke !

As mentioned above regarding Riri leaving the suit I presume her ironheart Disney show will prob tie in with her getting her proper ironheart suit and developing same

Still very disappointed with shuri getting the BP mantle and had hopes of nakia briefly and even a killmonger return when she went to the ancesterol plane

Going forward I can't see BP being a prominent figure with the avengers. Leticia Wright to me just doesn't have the screen presence to hang with the rest as a main player

santana75 · 12-11-2022 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119865553#Comment_119865553

You were right...........I really enjoyed this, I think its far better than the first film. Its very sincere, the grief felt at Chadwick Bosman's passing is palpable and I think this is what makes this film better than first (and better than most marvel films). Its too long for sure, they could've done with trimming 20-30mins from the run time but to be fair I was never bored.

I was gonna make more comments but cant figure out how to add spoiler tags, so will leave it until the embargo ends. But all in all a very enjoyable film.

Sudden Valley · 13-11-2022 11:03am

It was quite a unique superhero movue, but the running time was way too long. Was in packed screening and during the emotional scenes of the movie, you could have heard a pin drop. Like the characters grieving on screen I think the producers were affected by grief too and didnt really know how to proceed with the franchise, it would have been better if the events in last 10 minutes of the movie and after credits scene had happened half way through the movie.

RickBlaine · 13-11-2022 3:39pm

I liked the character work, the cast, and the acting. Angela Basset was a particular stand out. I wasn't too impressed with the action scenes though and I thought the ones in the first film were much better. The climatic battle in this movie was noticeably bland and perfunctory.

PTH2009 · 13-11-2022 10:33pm

What other MCU character would Namour have chemistry with??

Namour vs the likes of Captain America/Winter Solider/Hulk just doesn't look right

flazio · 13-11-2022 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119870805#Comment_119870805

Captain America's family is a fishing family so they would have the sea legs. Other than that I can't think of any mcu character with aquatic tendencies.

Damien360 · 13-11-2022 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119868250#Comment_119868250

I felt the same with regard to the grief. It was an overly long funeral procession. At the beginning it made sense but that too long, but why keep bringing it up ? Liked the new fishy characters. Fight scenes were poor for me.

Drumpot · 13-11-2022 10:48pm

I actually enjoyed it more then I thought I would. Also really liked the different music , I thought it was edited really well into the story and different moments of the movie. Actually enjoyed it more then BP1 but that’s possibly because that was waaaaaayy over hyped/praised as a movie (I understand the cultural significance to some).

TheIrishGrover · 14-11-2022 10:07am

I enjoyed that. Not as much as the original but did enjoy it:

I thought Boseman and Jordan were simply magnetic in the original and I just don't think anyone could follow them. Wright wasn't nearly as arresting as Boseman. Found her to be a lot less likeable. And I do realise this was 100% intentional. She is/isn't handling her grief. But I found Namor to be not quite as good as Killmonger (I still hate that name but hey, comic-name). He was too similar but without the swagger that Jordan brought. He was good but Jordan was just amazing.
The music was just fantastic (As it was in the original). I thought the music in the first was easily the best of the live-action movies (Spiderverse had my favourite music of all). Here they had all the awesome musical queues as well as music during the action sequences that reminded my for some reason of Tron sequel. Loved it.
Angela Bassett.... Simply amazing.
Wasn't gone on Riri Williams. I get it. I know who her character is and how she fits in and that she's really going to be part of the next phase but thought she just felt shoe-horned in
It's long but I was never watch-checking.
As I said, I didn't find Wright as fantastic as Boseman. Some of it is (intentionally) as her character is written - She is very angry and not coping. And some of it is down to me. Her anti-vax stance kind of put me off the actress and she is just SO slight. So teeny-tiny/thin. But that is just down to me personally and NOT a reflection of her acting (Which was very good).
The Wakandans, especially when fighting, on-parade, simply marching, whatever, looked amazingly bad-ass. I mean crazy OTT but each time put a smile on my face (Scene near the start as they return something - Trying not to give anything away). I laughed out loud at the entrance(s) and that whole scene was awesome.
I'll say it again: Angela Bassett... As Stan Lee would say (Even about a Marvel Character) 'nuff said!
The funeral scene and references to Boseman did leave a lump in my throat. I never read ony of the comics as a kid. Only REALLY know the characters through the movies/shows but, in my ignorance of source material, thought that Boseman was simply amazing from the instant he appeared in Civil War and I thought that Jordan was equally as amazing.
The action sequences, especially the climactic action scene, suffered from the usual Marvel CGI-fest. But that's more of a Marvel issue than anything specific to this.

So yeah, I didn't think it was QUITE as good as the first. The action sequences are bigger but not necessarily better than the original. The cast is very good but the antagonist is too similar to the original but without the attitude Jordan brought. But I would happily watch another. Much of my concerns were either personal or as the result of intentional character development.

But just to warn: I assume it is going to be absolutely destroyed by the usual suspects: Not only is the cast about 95% non-white (And most of the white characters are "baddies") but it's about 85% female. So just be warned 'cos the perma-"woke"-outraged virgin neckbeards will be out. Simply ignore them.

Just one spoiler (And it really is a spoiler - Mid Credit scene (In case people want to know, there is a mid-credit but no end-credit scene)

WHERE IN GOD'S NAME did they get the kid? My God, he was the living image of how I would imagine a very young Boseman looking. It was actually uncanny. So much so that I thought he was actually Boseman's son or that the kid's face was digitally altered to look like him.

johnny_ultimate · 14-11-2022 10:50am

It goes without saying this is the most interesting MCU film in a long time. For the first hour or so in particular, I think it was *by far* the most successful too. So it was really frustrating they couldn't pull it all together.

It has this poignantly elegiac tone to start, which is handled extremely well (the mix between sombre and celebratory was particularly well realised). But even when it starts getting into the plot proper, there are loads of good ideas. The attack on the research ship is easily among the best MCU setpieces (one dodgy CGI shot) - all tension, build-up and holding back the reveals. The performances are generally excellent, but Ludwig Göransson is a real MVP here - this sounds so different to anything else, and that - along with several directorial decisions from Coogler - goes a long way towards giving this film its own tone and energy. The introduction of Namor and Talokan gives Coogler the opportunity to expand on some of the themes introduced in part one, and smartly introduce new cultural influences into the film.

But there's a scene around halfway through, where Shuri and Namor explicitly talk about the film's anti-imperialist and anti-colonialist ideas, that the film reaches a turning point. It has all these ideas floating around, but even more so than the first film the demands of big third-act setpieces completely undermine what it's trying to do. The requirement to have 'good guys' and 'bad guys' for city-in-peril action sequences muddies the motivations of central characters. There was an opportunity here, right in the material, to make something that felt truly different - to take its many good ideas and depart more bravely from the MCU formula for something more thoughtful and forward-looking. It's right there in this film: the characters openly talk about it! But alas (unsurprisingly) the film cannot get there, and the result is a muddled and over-stuffed second half that has its moments but really can't bring it all together.

I found its handling of Shuri and Namor particularly frustrating. I think Shuri's angry grief following her mother's death feels oddly misjudged - even allowing for the shock of trauma! - and is too neatly resolved just when it needs to be. Similarly, the Talokan scenes painted Namor as a truly intriguing character that the remainder of the film can't live up to.

There's also the expected Marvel cruft: the Martin Freeman / Julia Louis Dreyfus stuff in particular could have been cut without issue. It's also disappointing to see Michaela Cole underused - again, her scenes could disappear without any significant impact on the film. Dominique Thorne is more elegantly woven into the plot, but her character does start to feel a lot like 'franchise setup' in the back half. While there are some striking visuals scattered throughout the film, I do think the cinematography and editing feel a bit more routine here - the extraordinary score instead doing lots of the heavy lifting.

It's a shame, because this is still easily my favourite MCU film since, well, probably Black Panther 1 - there's a lot here that's interesting and admirable, and in that first half I found it totally compelling. And while the film has around a dozen endings, the actual final coda is genuinely poignant and thoughtful. There's really a lot of good film in there... it's a shame there's quite a lot that isn't so good too.

Bacchus · 14-11-2022 11:05am

Borderline top tier MCU movie for me. First and foremost, they got the tone bang on. This wasn't a quip a minute Marvel "the world is ending but we're having fun" movie, this was about as sombre and dark as the MCU gets. They handled Boseman's passing perfectly, tying it to the narrative and paying homage to him... that final scene was a brilliant way to end the movie. It looked stunning too, not in the grand epic visuals like Eternals way, but it was just shot beautifully. I'm glad it was giving the long run time to let some scenes just have a minute and not be rushing to the next thing. The soundtrack is amazing too. Namor as well was amazing, top tier MCU villain. I'm looking forward to seeing more of him.

There are two aspects though that stop it being top tier for me...

Riri Williams... ok another brilliant young scientist, that's fine but it OTT. I think they just pushed what she could accomplish so quickly too fast. She built an Iron Man suit in a couple of days. She was handed controls to Wakanda defence systems in a heartbeat. She went from college student to flying an Iron Man suit picking off mutant superpowered fish people in the space of a few days. It was just a bit of a reach and I don't think the whole IronHeart thing needed to be pushed front and center so much.

As much as I enjoyed the final showdown and seeing Shuri come to terms with everything, bringing the conflict to a peaceful end... them showing up at the ship waving to their armies (with about 15 Wakandan's left alive) was a bit comical... "hey guys! We're friends now, it's ok.... Wakanda forever!"

Solid 8/10... possibly a 9/10 MCU movie for me.

FunLover18 · 14-11-2022 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871948#Comment_119871948

In fairness your complaints about Riri could be levelled at several other MCU characters, she's definitely not the first person to build an Iron Man suit in a couple of days 😂

TheIrishGrover · 14-11-2022 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871871#Comment_119871871

Yeah. The obligatory MCU CGI mass battle was a bit of a disappointment but not unexpected and is usually where I tune out. I thought it suited the last two Avengers movies (Apart from that god-awful female-superhero scene). But it really is the Achilles-heel of the MCU movies. She-hulk skewered this in the last episode.

I agree, Martin Freeman and Julia Louise Dreyfus really were wedged in there. Especially JLD. Martin Freeman made sense (And his American accent is much better) but the whole setups are becoming more and more obvious and, as you say, inelegant: "Hey, remember yer wan with her Ironman suit from that thing?". Sure, Spiderman was the same in Civil War ("You know anyone who could help?" "I have a kid who needs an intro for his own movie...") but now it's a case of "OK, they were all in the first movie. Grand. OK, we have 3 new characters.... Each with their own spinoff coming up". Yawn.

I mean I would still like to see another BP movie. Hope this does well. I would like to see a continuation of the first 1/3 of the movie. How Wakanda and the rest of the world work with/against eachother. Superpower Nations versus.... uh... Hyperpower Nations?

Foxtrol · 14-11-2022 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872485#Comment_119872485

Highly doubt it is the end for that thread of other nations trying to catch up with Wakanda.

The political and CIA stuff is likely setting up the arms race for Armor Wars, CA:NWO, and Thunderbolts. I doubt they'll directly impact Wakanda until a BP3 though

Bacchus · 14-11-2022 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872070#Comment_119872070

This is true. However, it just didn't fit as well here with the tone of the movie. There was a lot going on and it was, for the MCU, a fairly complex, emotionally deep movie. Riri was fine for the purposes of needing a person to save from Namor. That she's a genius too is fine (and par for the course in the MCU). I just found it unnecessary to lump in the Iron Heart action stuff with everything else. In a movie where every moment, every action, every line had significant weight to it, I think Riri could have been sidelined for the 3rd act, and the Iron Heart suit could have been left as a post credit scene for a future movie.

Foxtrol · 14-11-2022 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873448#Comment_119873448

Agreed. Given the suits for Okoye and co (which were absolutely terrible), the Iron Heart suit didnt add any value flying around in the finale. Presuming she leaves that suit in Wakanda then they're going to end up along the same lines as Parker in Homecoming or Stark in IM3 with her having to deal with life without a high powered suit.

Would much rather her just build it out herself as part of her more natural developing story in her show.

johnny_ultimate · 14-11-2022 5:14pm

One of the problems with the MCU aesthetic is they often have to have characters have these ultra-slick, Tony Stark style high-tech armour. The Spider-Man films fall into this trap where Peter Parker has increasingly elaborate suits. But I think there's a lot to be said for letting these characters just have more unique, even homemade gear - allows for more characterisation and individual expression to emerge.

The way they handle Ironheart here... the character has a cool, ramshackle suit to start but then gets given the ultra-fancy Iron Man armour and it's just a bit boring. Now, maybe they'll go back to the former given how this film ends, but it's just a shame they have all these characters becoming more homogenised in terms of their style and tech. Ditto the extra fancy super suits given to some of the Wakanda characters for the final battle.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872485#Comment_119872485

I agree it's the Achilles-heel for the series in general, but there's something extra frustrating here when the characters gesture towards a different sort of outcome than conflict during a couple of pivotal scenes. I mean, it's not much of a stretch to say they could even have had a final battle (or two big battles, in this case) that did make sense if they tweaked the sides involved. But they seem to hold that back for sequel-baiting stuff.

As a result, I just didn't buy that these people should've been fighting each other, and it seemed the film was just so beholden to the formula that they couldn't try something different. Naive to expect anything different I guess, but this film was the perfect opportunity to aim for something different given the various unique and interesting things it's doing thematically and tonally. It's when there are gestures towards something different that the familiar route seems particularly disappointing.

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

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