Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

irelandrover · 02-11-2022 10:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822587#Comment_119822587

The lions scrum halfs were bad, and still Cooney wasnt picked. Simmonds was picked at 8 so Gatland wasnt afraid to pick players who weren't internationals.

The fact is that 3 successful international coaches have not regularly picked Cooney and have picked Murray. At what point do you think that you are maybe overestimating his ability?

starkid · 02-11-2022 10:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822618#Comment_119822618

Murray is clearly living off reputation. Gatlands treatment of him basically confirmed it. Selected as captain and then sort of like bombed out. Like POM on the last tour in terms of percieved ability against reality.

Obviously POM is aging like fine wine and would have a good stab at a lions call up if it was this year. Murray is aging like milk unfortunately, and his race is run. he's good for closing out a game, ten minutes thats about it.

if he's selected against Sa i think it shows we ahven't learnt our lesson about anything. Murray cannot play at that pace. We saw it in the Argentina game.

phily2002 · 02-11-2022 10:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822559#Comment_119822559

Yeah I agree, I don't think the coaches care about the provincial bias. They do what they think is right but Irish coaches also get it wrong a lot especially come world Cup time.

02-11-2022 10:33AM

Conor Murray has had a great career but he's been extremely lucky to earn some of the caps he received at the very start and very end of it. And if we're going with the argument that the coaches see them in training therefore know best and are infallible, we may as well shut the forum down, no need for discussion.

02-11-2022 10:34AM

I guess it's a rugby forum and people are discussing rugby players but I just can't get my head around why people are putting so much time and effort into discussing Cooney. Bar a catastrophic injury crisis, it is overwhelmingly likely he will never play for Ireland again. For whatever reason, the coaches don't fancy him. I think he probably deserved more of a shot over the past few seasons, I think experienced Irish players (in this case Murray, he shouldn't be near a starting Irish XV imo) get indulged a bit too much, I think coaches are indeed fallible and the appeals to authority you read on here are annoying. But we have some talent coming through in Casey and Doak and when you look to the future I know it isn't going to be Cooney, he's not going to play in the 6N, he's not going to the RWC, it's not happening.

McGrath is getting a good bit of discussion as well for his Leinster form, I think he's playing well but I read/heard someone say that he is a fantastic rugby player but not a fantastic scrum half. I personally think the coaches have gotten it right leaving him out.

Deramore · 02-11-2022 10:41AM

Per Murray Kinsella on Twitter: Sounds like Gibson-Park and Murray are the two Irish 9s against Boks. Also seems Baloucoune may get a big chance at 14 against the Boks.

Podge_irl · 02-11-2022 10:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822554#Comment_119822554

yes playing well for your club shouldn't have any bearing on Irish selection.

peak boards.ie commentary.

Completely making up what someone else said is also pretty peak boards.ie commentary.

Playing well for your club gets you in the squad - what you do when you get there is what gets you into the international team.

02-11-2022 10:44AM

Would be delighted if Balacoune started. He's absolutely class.

phily2002 · 02-11-2022 10:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822679#Comment_119822679

Probably my fault this one lol.

I was originally responding to a poster who said Cooney was never the best scrum half in Ireland which I'd strongly disagree with.

However yeah it's a thing of the past now and the ship has sailed.

02-11-2022 11:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822763#Comment_119822763

Don't mean to say it's anyone's fault or even there is fault to be apportioned. More just trying to say, as you do above, the ship has sailed. It's gone, over the horizon, it isn't coming back.

aloooof · 02-11-2022 11:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822679#Comment_119822679

Personally, I don’t think McGrath would suit the Irish game plan at all, tbh. His pass accuracy isn’t where you’d like it to be and I think someone like Blade would bring more tempo.

aloooof · 02-11-2022 11:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822707#Comment_119822707

I see Niallof9 is back again…

Shehal · 02-11-2022 12:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822707#Comment_119822707

Someone should teach the English fans this!

ShineyShiney · 02-11-2022 12:23PM

I think Murray played well in NZ and has always played well internationally. His skill set would suggest that if he doesn't feature against the boks then who does he play against and ....Central contract

starkid · 02-11-2022 01:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822833#Comment_119822833

sorry?

starkid · 02-11-2022 01:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822707#Comment_119822707

and completely doubling down on being wrong another boards characteristic.

"Winning nominations for player of the year for your club. Isn’t and shouldn’t be a selection criteria for Ireland."

of course it should have bearing on selection, and it clealy did. he got a couple of caps. case closed, he's no longer good enough. its laughable that people on here constantly dismiss form. its something that AF clearly values. Look at Mack Hansen last season.

From the training photos it looks like Murray is starting. that will be a disaster

Great to to maybe see RB on the right wing but this was said last Nov and it proved inaccurate.

stephen_n · 02-11-2022 01:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822587#Comment_119822587

Who would he have selected because it certainly wouldn’t have been Cooney. Murray was a shadow of his 2017 self. Though he still suited Gatlands game plan to a degree.

No coach picks a player on reputation. If anyone in camp was demonstrating they could do a better job than Murray. They would have been selected, they clearly didn’t. Which is what happened with Price for the Lions and now for Ireland with JGP. Cooney failed to do that.

starkid · 02-11-2022 01:23PM

loads of coaches pick players on reputation. Reputation builds trust and confidence. sometimes there is nothing wrong with it

nobody on here has issues with CM closing out a game. you'd back all his core skills.

However as a starter its a different story, seeing that his world class game is completely gone.

Clegg · 02-11-2022 01:37PM

This article makes some good points on Irelands game plan. We need to add a few more elements to our attack in order to not get caught out by opposition who will have analysed us thoroughly. We don't want to be caught in the same way as 2019 where our tactics had been worked out and we had no response to it. It'll be harder to do that this time round tbf. We're far more dangerous in phase play than 4 years ago which was too collisions focused.

I think it's fair to say that Ireland has the most sophisticated attack amongst the Tier 1 nations. It requires the forwards to be comfortable on the ball to make those drag back passes, but also the intelligence to identify when the pass is on or if would be more advantageous for subsequent phases if they take contact instead. Then the backs are required to make intelligent running lines and to know when they're the dummy runner.

There's a lot of moving parts to it, but in the New Zealand tour we saw it working incredibly well. We cut through their defence. Opposition analysts will have scouted our patterns extensively from last season Six Nations and summer tours. They'll know what's coming and will work to prevent it.

In the Six Nations you could see that some teams had already devised tactics to prevent Irelands forwards from making those drag back passes to a back in an arcing run. Doris was our primary passer in the forwards and his passing channel was getting flooded by rush defenders. We ironed that flaw out by developing more forwards as passing options. But that will have been sxouted thoroughly now as well.

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1587733308741484546?t=1L5XMZQPBwzWIxlw-vlwdA&s=09

Dubinusa · 02-11-2022 02:33PM

The Cooney discussion is interesting imo. Was he better than Murray? I thought he was. But, experience and knowing the systems, bedding in are important. Probably the reason why Murray has been selected.

Luke is not going to be selected. He's too inconsistent passing the ball. Marmion Probably should be in the discussion and Doak too. Coaching is not infallible! Look at us when we were ranked#1. We completely crapped our jocks and were dumped out of the world cup.

If Murray does start this week, I think Rassie will be very happy. Our attack will be slow and the boks can fill the defensive line. I think we lose if Murray starts but, that wouldn't be the worst thing. I wouldn't have Murray near the squad. He's well past his peak and he's probably going to fall behind Casey at Munster.

Doak should get a look v NZ this week, imo. He could make a run over the next year.

Former Former Former · 02-11-2022 02:34PM

Ireland ‘A’ v All Blacks XV (RDS, Friday, November 4th, 7.45pm)

15. Michael Lowry (Ulster/Banbridge) 1 cap

14. Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas) uncapped

13. Jamie Osborne (Leinster/Naas) uncapped

12. James Hume (Ulster/Banbridge) 3 caps

11. Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 35 caps

10. Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/Skerries) uncapped

9. Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon) 5 caps Captain

1. Jeremy Loughman (Munster/Garryowen) uncapped

2. Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 7 caps

3. Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 3 caps

4. Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin) uncapped

5. Gavin Thornbury (Connacht) uncapped

6. Cian Prendergast (Connacht) uncapped

7. Nick Timoney (Ulster/Banbridge) 2 caps

8. Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster) 2 caps

Replacements:

16. Diarmuid Barron (Munster/Garryowen) uncapped

17. Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians) 48 caps

18. Marty Moore (Ulster) 10 caps

19. Ross Molony (Leinster/UCD) uncapped

20. Max Deegan (Leinster/Lansdowne) 1 cap

21. Caolin Blade (Connacht/Galwegians) 1 cap

22. Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution) uncapped

23. Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster) uncapped

Former Former Former · 02-11-2022 02:34PM

TLDR: Keenan, JGP and Baloucoune are playing against the ABs.

Former Former Former · 02-11-2022 02:37PM

So likely team for Saturday

Keenan, Baloucoune, Ringrose, Henshaw, Hansen, Sexton, JGP, Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Ryan, Treadwell, POM, VDF, Doris

Herring, Healy, Bealham, Baird, Conan, Murray, Carbery, McCloskey

02-11-2022 02:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119823763#Comment_119823763

That's a really good side imo.

Didn't realise Ross Molony had been called up, but happy for him.

Paul Smeenus · 02-11-2022 02:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119823763#Comment_119823763

That's a whole lotta "uncapped".

irelandrover · 02-11-2022 02:48PM

Surprised to see Casey as captain. It looks a good team.

AbusesToilets · 02-11-2022 02:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119823400#Comment_119823400

The closing out a game premise is built on the assumption that we're winning and need to slow things down to see out a match. If we're chasing a game, or if JGP gets injured early, then we're goosed. Murray is incapable of playing the high tempo game. That's been evident repeatedly over the last few years.

He wouldn't make any other provinces match 23, he's not good anymore. It's a farce he's still getting picked. Bring in one of the provincial starters, or back one of the young lads.

Shehal · 02-11-2022 02:48PM

If JGP & Keenan werent considered match fit they would be playing NZL XV, this selection indicates that they will be fit to play against the Boks.

I always found it interesting that Baloucoune played in the 11 shirt rather than 14 for EI...maybe there was more to that than meets the eye ( now watch him be picked in the 14 shirt with Hansen switching over and I have egg on my face!)

Shehal · 02-11-2022 02:50PM

I also find it interesting that Penny hasn't been picked. Obviously he may just have been left out, its a bloody good BR for Ireland A, but could he have possibly impressed and is now considered part of the Ireland squad, after all VDF is only back training this week and Penny is probably the most VDF like back row we have in the squad.

02-11-2022 02:50PM

I like that side, looking forward to the game.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Comments

Ireland ‘A’ v All Blacks XV (RDS, Friday, November 4th, 7.45pm)