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Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Well it's a very intense topic of discussion. A lot of people should be ashamed of themselves, but I'd say 80% of people joined the witch hunt on the unvaccinated. The pandemic of the unvaccinated and all the shaming that went on.

    Celebs, political classes and senior civil servants all shaming the unvaccinated. Calling them antivaxxers, potential granny killer's and worse.

    Absolutely disgusting, locking people out of establishment's.

    The fear mongering etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,845 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Agree with that

    Although some anti vaxxers didn't come out great either and acted horribly to people



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,764 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    There was a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

    I'm not defending every aspect of the covid response but the differential statistics on vaccinated versus unvaccinated in hospitals justified measures to encourage vaccination. It was vaccines that allowed the establishments to re-open.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    i remember been in toulouse in summer 2003 hit 40 degrees, morgues were full.

    European heat wave of 2003, record high temperatures across Europe in 2003 that resulted in at least 30,000 deaths (more than 14,000 in France alone)

    so yeh heatwaves dont cause excess deaths

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    But was it the efficiency of the vaccines that allowed establishment's to be open.

    Or was it the fact that so many people were vaccinated and that's the best they could do in the given circumstance. Therefore job done and back to normal and they'll work on boosters for anyone who wishes to take them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    If you had bothered to read the posts you would realise we were neither talking about Covid treatments nor you at all..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,521 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Vaccines are designed to be taken by everyone, its what herd immunity is about (though using the word immunity is flag to some) i.e. the amount of virus circulating, and risk thereof is so low that no extra precautions need to be taken. The vaccines achieved that, it's revisionism to suggest otherwise (and we still see impact in unvaccinated population, usually not in the western world).

    And remember, post vaccination, the impact vs. serious disease remains strong for a long time (post infection as well, but less consistent and with different efficacies against different strains + with the real risk of serious disease).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Exactly.

    I wpuld think there are a lot of obvious reasons for an increase in worldwide excess deaths.

    War, famine, disease and poverty have all increased substantially risks for younger deaths as well as the more usual deaths in older people.

    I would not think that it is down to one particular thing this year.

    How many young Ukrainians and Russians alone have died since February?

    When you posted first with the ' dropping like flies' comnent I thought you were talking about in Ireland, so didn't get what you were saying.

    The heat did kill a lot of people this year but the majority of these deaths would be older people.

    That said climate change killing people of all ages in fires and floods and through famine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    We still see the impact of unvaccinated people in Ireland in our hospitals.

    Whether people like it or not it is a fact that predominantly more and younger (40s up) get sick enough to be hospitalised even now than people who are vaccinated.

    The push to vaccination is a push to ease pressure on healthcare, whether people agree with that or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Whats this Sky prog called?

    Been watching This England the last week. Even more surreal than I had imagined!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,845 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Correct 'This England (This Sceptred Isle on IMDB) is the show



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Very good. Thought it shows how divorced from reality Boris and his cabinet were and how they were more intetested in 'having something to say' whether right or wrong than helping the people they were elected to supposedly serve.

    Boris and his pregnant fiancee spent much of their time entertaining and away from Downing St either oblivious or uncaring .. Reminded me of King Louis V1 and Marie Antoinette !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭darconio


    I believe those stats don't include Russia and Ukraine, I could be wrong. Regardless of that it's quite coincidental that we have an excess mortality of people between 15 and 44, that otherwise are supposed to be at the apex of their life.

    What's causing the spike of SADS in the younger generations? Were they all vaccinated? how many doses? were they all unvaccinated? were they exposed to the heatwave for such a prolonged time that caused a cardiac arrest? Am I the only one to remember all the athletes collapsing or affected in some way by certain pathologies, previously occurring with a risible incidence, that had to terminate their career?

    Why nobody is asking those question?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭darconio


    When you say impact of unvaccinated, do you mean people that didn't get the 1st/2nd booster or fully unvaccinated? because I find it hard to believe that ,since 15 months, the usual bunch of unvaccinated come in and out of the hospital.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,764 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Causing what exactly? You're "just asking questions" yet haven't provided any evidence to back up anything you've claimed. So at the moment it's not even apparent they are questions requiring answers and their premise is justified.

    Is there a spike of SADs?

    Is there a spike in athletes collapsing?

    Is there even an increase in excess deaths over the course of 2022 when known factors - demographic changes, heatwave, covid - are taken into account?

    If it's more than just you remembering, you should be able to provide some evidence of actual stats here and not random anecdotes. And you can be sure then that the statement "nobody asking these questions" is false.

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Those questions ARE being asked... And if its a valid question, looked into.

    But lets be prepared to listen to the answers.

    Some people are quick to jump to 'the vaccines are to blame'

    And if the results are.. Covid infection however mild, is to blame?

    Will it be fobbed off as a whitewash or a conspiracy?

    I regularly have posted studies here as have others which clearly state either it is or it isn't an issue.

    Have you read any of them with an open mind?

    Only people ignoring the issues are those who won't even read these studies without declaring them fearmongering or flatly refusing saying" Covid is over! "..

    I gave up posting them unless someone asks me for the information now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Think you won't believe anything I say will you. Look at todays news about covid cases in hospital and read it for yourself. I won't print it and be accused of 'fearmongering'.

    Read what they say abput the cohort of over 65s being admitted, and make your own mind up.

    Are they lying? If so, why?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    @darconio Poland had one of the highest excess death rate in the world in 2021. And one of the lowest vaccine take in the developed world as well. Go figure that out...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    @darconio looking to your own link it is clear that the main rise in excess deaths is proportionately those in 0 to 14 age bracket.

    Also most of Europe falls into the category of no significant excess deaths since the Sumner Hence why not being reported... Not news anymore.

    No data, you are correct from Ukraine understandably and Russia ( maybe world figures might give a clearer picture)

    I don't see anything jumping out there except the young.

    I can assure you that in Ireland there is no evidence of any significant rise in childhood deaths either from the vaccine or from anything else atm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭darconio


    Of course I will believe you, but you didn't answer my question though! You said the unvaccinated are causing a strain in the health system, however it appears that is not the unvaccinated, but the ones that didn't complete the full cycle of 2 + 2 + bivalent jab. Beside it looks like many tested positive while admitted for other causes

    Covid-19: hospital cases rise sharply over three weeks – The Irish Times

    Sixty patients admitted to hospital with Covid daily as winter surge looms - Independent.ie

    As of September 27th, about 70 per cent of cases of hospitalised for Covid-19 were people aged 65 years and older. Of these, more than one in four had not completed their primary two-dose Covid-19 vaccine course and about two in five had not yet received a booster dose.

    Now I am not good at math, does that mean that 3 in five received their booster but still were admitted in hospital for/with Covid? What about the remaining 30%? What was their age/vaccination status?

    And again:

    Children aged between five and 11 are eligible for the primary two-dose Covid-19 vaccine course, and if they have a weak immune system, they can avail of a booster dose.

    Yet in the vaccine leaflet:

    COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is not recommended for children under 12 years.

    I was forced to administer ONLY Calpol (basically enhanced ribena) to my young son when he was sick because anything else would have been too strong, yet we should inject them with not 1 but 2 doses of a drug that, regardless of what they want us to believe, is still in trial and according to the same pharma company that produce it, it is not suitable.

    You are right though, regardless of whatever study we post, it won't change anybody's opinions about vaccination: I am fine with that, I don't need to convince anybody, as long as we don't go back to the old mantra of the "pandemic of the unvaccinated" or the unvaccinated are the root of all evil



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Doc07


    Try harder, you’ve linked to the information for the adult 30microgram dose of the Pfizer vaccine which is not and never was or will be indicated for children under 12.

    As you will know if you read any of the the same website you linked from , there is a 10microgram dose approved for children age 5-11. Millions of kids age 5-11 have received it (mostly in US) with no excess deaths, hospitalisations, heart attacks etc compared to the unvaccinated or any other age group



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I note you highlighted one part of the sentence but ignored the other?

    Yes your maths are wrong . Read that again .

    That leaflet is UK regs .....are you posting from the UK ?

    If you had read about the vaccine for 5 to 11 year olds you would know that the dose approved for children of that age is one third that of older children and adults ...EMA approved .

    So you don't agree with vaccination , and all of this blather since yesterday about young people dropping like flies was seeking to try to make that point somehow , without making that point ?

    A bit dishonest, darconio.

    Yea nobody wants to go back to that pandemic of the unvaccinated, least of all healthcare staff.

    And as for the unvaccinated being the root of all evil ? Well that's just an ignorant thing to say .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,764 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭darconio


    Not trying to be dishonest however reading that article is far from being the unvaccinated as you claimed putting a strain in the health system

    As of September 27th, about 70 per cent of cases of hospitalised for Covid-19 (what about the remaining 30%) were people aged 65 years and older. Of these, more than one in four had not completed their primary two-dose Covid-19 vaccine course (Means that 1 in four had at least 1 dose and 3 in 4 had their 2 doses) and about two in five had not yet received a booster dose (Means that 2 in 5 had no booster and 3 in five had their booster).

    Yes the unvaccinated were treated as the degenerates that caused the spread of the virus, fortunately that has been cleared up



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,764 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    And what are the relative figures in the population for vaccinated v unvaccinated?

    So the unvaccinated are disproportionately represented. And were in 2021.

    But of course you know this already but pretend not to.

    And double down with the strawman nonsense about degenerates.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭walus


    With regard to the unexplained excess deaths there is finally some compiled data coming from UK:

    https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9

    All interactive and self explanatory.

    Page 3 (by age group) and 8 (by cause of death) are interesting. It appears that cohorts under 65 years of age are more affected and that heart failure/disease dominates as the cause of death.


    Edit: Also what transpires is that heart failure/heart disease/circulatory disease deaths were on the rise since mid 2021.

    Post edited by walus on

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,476 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I never said it was putting a strain on the health system ! That was in the past , during Delta mainly...move on !

    Point was/ is that vaccination even now makes a difference to hospitalisation levels .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭live4tkd


    No there was a hysterical PANICdemic of the unvaccinated by all forms of media! Typical example of the no debate one sidedness of the pandemic. No reasoned debate only what was trotted out by the usual suspects in media. I hope we never experience this ever again! Absolutely disgusting behaviour that went on and I have lost respect for people that engaged in it!

    People should be encouraged absolutely yes to get the vaccine and I am glad I got mine BY CHOICE. You get the vaccine you take a risk. You don`t take the vaccine you also take a risk! Yes and in time the vaccine will get better and better as it needs time for scientists to improve it and I believe it will eventually stop transmission. But I categorically do not support the unvaccinated campaign that went on with politicians, medics, professors, celebrities and so called social media influencers who engaged in it should be ashamed of themselves!

    This whole episode has angered me so much. They were on the media yesterday again yesterday about some independent report about Irelands response. I believe we will pay and are paying a huge price with backlogs, missed diagnosis, adult/children`s mental health, addiction issue increase, domestic abuse increase and conditions that have yet to appear due to Irelands overly long lockdown policies.

    Thankfully and hopefully we are moving on because quite frankly at this stage we have to!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Someone will pay for Ireland's response to the pandemic. I can see a tribunal in the future over the lack of car for kids, elderly and missed appointments.

    I just don't get why non respiratory condition appointments were cancelled. Such as orthopedic appointments, screening for various condition's, people had to get therapy for mental health online via zoom and some therapists were charging full prices I heard.

    Were orthopedic surgeons and other specialists on the 350 a week when their appointments were cancelled.

    Was Croom orthopedic hospital overwhelmed with covid patients or regional hospitals definitely not.

    And the nursing home scandal, that's going to come back to haunt people.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,764 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The vaccine mandates were justified imo. The vaccines versus the strains in circulation at the time significantly prevented transmission and if you were going to have people in pubs, restaurants you did not want them to be unvaccinated as if they did get covid - disproportionate risk of severe covid. The establishments were shut pre-vaccine. If you don't want to get the vaccine don't, but it was warranted to treat vaccinated and unvaccinated differently in such settings. To suggest there was no reasoned debate is without merit or foundation.

    Lots of crimes dropped during lockdown. Yet no mention of that on your one sided balance sheet.

    What price would we have paid without the restrictions?

    The balance sheet is far more complicated than the picture you present.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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