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Softening house market?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Assuming you are fixed mortgage for the first 5 or so years, consider setting aside a lump sum to overpay the mortgage when the fixed rate ends.

    If interest rates do rise a lot by the time your fixed rate ends, the lump sum could knock a lot of money off your mortgage overall

    https://www.drcalculator.com/mortgage/ is a nice tool to visualise what impact a lump sum or rise in rates etc can do to your mortgage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    That can depend on credit and your access to it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    What are we attributing the extra supply to? There's been no new legislation as regards landlords so if they're scrambling to get out of the market it's for other reasons - top of the market/getting out before further legislation? And I thought I heard that's it's 20-25% of increase in stock can only be attributed to landlords leaving, so what's driving the rest, again - trying to time top of the market and, possibly pent-up sale demand since covid?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭Burti16


    Any 1% increase in interest rates require circa %11 price drop in house prices in order to offset total mortgage impact over 30 years. It's going to be tough few years for both sellers and buyers.

    Any sharp increase in number of sales fall through won't be a surprise to me if lenders start to increase rates



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Maybe wait another quarter. Not going up doesn't mean going down.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    How many people care about the total cost of the mortgage over life?

    Given the craziness over the past few years, I'd say that people wouldn't care about a 1 or 2% rise. Just give me a house now dammit!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    Personally, I think one would be mad to buy now. But, many here will disagree.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Explain how?

    I'll counter by people buying houses sight unseen and paying well well over the odds for the property. If someone doesn't care about the upfront cost now, then why would they care about that cost plus interest over a 30-year mortgage?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    So in your world, do people not care about a 10 percent hike either?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    What I'm saying is that a few extra % interest won't lead to a great cooling in house prices. People still want houses. There are thousands of buyers, many waiting for years with no house to buy. So if interest rates increase, what makes you think that all these people will just give up and wait for prices to drop?

    They won't. People want to buy houses, and I guarantee that an increase in interest will do little to affect demand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    That's an interesting guarantee.

    Someone needs some lessons on how markets work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭dontmindme




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,871 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    More people are buying because more are selling. The result is that pent up demand has been satisfied at the price point achieved hence no rise in prices. The current quarterly rise is less than inflation for the period so is in fact a fall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,871 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    More people are buying because more are selling. The result is that pent up demand has been satisfied at the price point achieved hence no rise in prices. The current quarterly rise is less than inflation for the period so is in fact a fall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭wassie


    Our housing market isnt a free market but in fact is full of distortions.

    Its quite conceivable in Ireland that for many folk with AIPs, an additional 1-2% increase in rates wont necessarily affect them if their serviceability as assessed by the mortgage provider (particularly professional couples with no kids) remains higher than the 3.5x LTI limit imposed by the Central Bank.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    COVID had little to no effect.

    Brexit had little to no effect.

    The war in Ukraine had little to no effect.

    A point or two of interest will have an effect?

    Why are prices not going down and why have they not gone down year on year with the above world-changing events?

    there are a lot more properties on the market, sellers are being worried we've peaked. What happens when these sell quickly? it's not like the % of new builds has increased dramatically.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    Covid had no effect on the property market?, I dont know what planet you live on. Covid drove up prices of property and other assets at a silly rate, across the world. Well, governments response to covid did.

    Policy is shifting now and rate hikes are just started. Policy dictates prices of assets, not covid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,520 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Rubbish. That would mean if rates increased by 5% houses prices should drop 40% if they increased by 10% house prices should drop 65%.

    Someone picked that out of there ar5e and taught it make sense. But it is not factoring in any other effects. As well fixed rates do not follow variable rates % for%.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    His calculation is correct.

    If I want to borrow 100,000 for 30 year at 3% fixed, then my repayments will be 419.42 per month.

    If I want to borrow 88,615 over 30 years at 4% fixed then my repayments will be 419.42 per month.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭Beigepaint


    Bass, are you economically illiterate? A 10% increase in interest rates would crash the economy.

    It would be a very big deal indeed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭Burti16


    can you prove otherwise? I understand you're having difficulties understanding compound interest rate calculation based on mathematical facts as well as what you read. I'm basically saying if... and then ... It doesn't mean that housing market must respond to interest rates changes the exact opposite way



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,473 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    There is going to be chaos in the housing market in the UK because of market moves on the Sterling and the need for the BoE to step in and increase rates to stop a run on its currency.

    Lots of mortgage products were pulled yesterday as banks and lender reassess the nature of the changes.

    The housing market in the UK was already turning sour. Now though I think there will be a capitulation in prices.


    The Market is expecting the BoE to raise its rate to 6% next year, which means mortgage rates of 8%+

    This could really make people on this side of the water really wary and could really sour sentiment further.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula



    Yeah the maths is obviously correct but it's not quite that simple. A 10% cheaper house with a 10% more expensive loan isn't really exactly the same cost - for one thing the deposit requirement is lower. And with the rate of inflation, any initial cost like a deposit is relatively more significant than future costs. You also have to consider how long the mortgage will be fixed for as the initial rate isn't absolute. Low rate mortgages need to factor in the probability of an increase in future, and vice versa. You can also offset some of that compound interest pain if you have the ability to pay early too. So even on a pure numbers basis I don't think the higher rates would justify an exact equivalent drop in house prices.

    There are other factors too. Higher rates will help those saving for a deposit to get there slightly quicker for example. And there are many cash buyers out there or people trading up who don't need a mortgage to cover the whole cost of a home. I don't know what percentage of average house prices are actually covered by loans and it probably varies by market segment.

    There is clearly a psychological factor at play too where many people don't think about it as much as they think about the headline price when bidding, though this is obviously tempered by what banks will actually allow them to stretch themselves too.

    Rising interest rates will cool the market but I don't expect to see anything like a direct mapping between mortgage cost increases and price decreases. I think we'll see a levelling and maybe a very slow and modest drop. Given the current rate of inflation any levelling off is already a fairly big drop in real terms.

    I think if we do see a big drop it would be due to sentiment and consumer confidence rather than mortgage rates - for example if we see a particularly bad winter with the energy crisis and start seeing job losses and major recession fears.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 210 ✭✭Mr Hindley


    As a personal anecdote - I own a property in London (used to be my home, before I relocated back to Ireland), and my tenants have just announced they're moving out. A week ago, I'd have been more on the fence about selling the flat or renting it out, but after the last few days, I'll very likely sell up, given how bad things are turning in the UK, especially. I'm sure other landlords will be thinking along similar lines, so the UK may now see a surge in landlords offloading properties, the way that we have here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    No, COVID had no effect on cooling the property market, which is true. The opposite happened.

    I don't think rising interest rates or 1 or 2% will cool it either.

    I'm open to being proven wrong, but a price crash won't happen. Supply is low, demand is high and nothing will change there for years. COVID, Brexit, and a war in Europe has done little to reduce demand, or increase supply. Prices are just hitting the ceiling of affordability.

    Demand dictates the price of assets. Policy incentivises or disincentivises demand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    Not sure the value of a US commercial property piece in relation to Irish residential property market.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Rising interest rates will cool the market but I don't expect to see anything like a direct mapping between mortgage cost increases and price decreases.

    There is a reason for this, and it is that there are plenty of financially illiterate people who place too much weight on arguments that are similar to those in the rest of your post. It is what happened in the mid-2000's when every eejit was piling in blindly ignoring the warnings that things were unsustainable. Unfortunately, some of those who were wreckless were rewarded by the State and society by being bailed out directly and indirectly. Only for that the impact on the market would have been a lot worse.

    You can possibly take on a bit more risk if you have a genuine path for career advancement such that you are fairly sure that your salary will increase sufficiently over time. That is not strictly the case for everyone though. And that is the reason why there are stricter rules now preventing people from taking on too much mortgage debt. There are still people who are in arrears since the last crash. 14 years on and they still haven't been able to get back to where they thought they would be. There have also been a noticeable increase on various auction sites of receiver sales of all types of property. Many of that would have been in the hands of receivers as a result of the last crash and they are only finally being offloaded now.

    Will we see State intervention again if rates continue to rise - unfortunately it is likely that we will. The fiscally prudent who didn't take on debt that they couldn't service will find themselves paying higher taxes to subsidize those who were reckless. If rates take a few more jumps there is no doubt that you will have people calling for State intervention or tax credits or subsidies or changes to rules etc.

    You can see my example a few posts up. If you can afford to pay a level 420 Euro per month, then you can service a mortgage of 100k if you get it at 3% fixed for 30 years. Whereas if your rate is 4% you can only afford to service a loan of about 88.5k. Maybe you won't understand the risks and you fire ahead anyway and try to fudge things to take on the 100k@4%. And maybe it would work out for you, or maybe your property would be up for auction by a receiver in 14 years.



  • Administrators Posts: 55,180 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Your post is confusing as you contradict yourself only a few paragraphs apart.

    On the one hand, "we have stricter rules preventing people taking on too much mortgage debt" and then you follow it up with "prices won't drop because people are stupid and will take on too much mortgage debt".

    Am I misreading?

    The LTI rules have been very successful.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump




This discussion has been closed.
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