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How wealthy can you be before you are no longer a Christian ?

  • 21-05-2022 09:29AM
    #1
    SuperBowserWorld
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,724 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Genuine question.

    I see wealthy Christians who hoard and grab wealth and resources for themselves and their families. And it has a snowball property. I.e. the wealthier you are, the easier it is to acquire more wealth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_poverty_and_wealth


    So, how wealthy can you be before you are no longer a Christian ?

    Are billionaires Christians ?

    People with multiple properties ?

    (Edit) typo



«13

Comments

  • #2
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,778 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Mod: Irrelevant and frivolous posts removed. It seems unlikely that a sensible discussion on Christianity and wealth can result from this opening post, however I will leave it for a while to see how it goes.



  • #3
    riffmongous
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,953 ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Jesus was quite clear.


    The fact that this has remained a topic of discussion for 2000 years considering how clearly written it is, is really remarkable, and shows just how wealth and riches truly are incompatible with his teachings.



  • #4
    Addmagnet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭Addmagnet


    Well that sucks, typed out long post which Boards eated :(

    Basically, money isn't the problem, it's what people do with it that is meaningful.

    And the same can be said for religion.



  • #5
    SuperBowserWorld
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,724 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    It's a genuine question.

    I don't really care about if Jesus is God or not, but I do admire highly and respect his teachings, especially when you strip away all the stuff and nonsense that's been added by others.

    I get really annoyed when a wealthy relative bangs on about going to mass and confession and blah blah blah.. and donate a fiver each week to the church.

    Silly, easy, fantasy stuff.

    Walk the walk, not talk the talk. And this talk the talk becomes more unforgiving the wealthier you are.

    (Edit)

    So, for me, this is the hard and fundamental part of being a Christian.

    Especially in a dog eat dog, wealth by any means worshipping society.

    How do you survive and be Christian in a society like this. Especially with a family ???

    Post edited by SuperBowserWorld on


  • #6
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    It would depend on where the wealth comes from and there's the 'render unto Caesar' thing.

    The second bit first. Tax avoidance is a grey areas. Anyone on PAYE earning over €70,000 a year is paying over 20% on PRSI and USC before they pay a single cent of tax. So a wealthy person paying an effective rate of less than that on their gross income is effectively being subsidised by the rest of us. And that means more economic hardship for those on the breadline.

    If wealth comes directly or at a short remove from human suffering it can't be considered ethical. Look at the working conditions of Amazon workers for example. Everyone knows they'll be replaced by robots when it's cheaper to do so. Shareholders are morally responsible for the actions of the companies they invest in.

    Some of the tech billionaires have individually amassed more wealth than 40% of the population of the USA to give an idea of how much suffering could be alleviated in other circumstances.



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  • #7
    hayse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse


    Another dole bashing thread.



  • #8
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Was Joseph of Arimathea a Christian?



  • #9
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,302 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Bill Gates is a pretty wealthy guy. I don't know if he considers himself Christian but he is extremely generous with his wealth. Many wealthy people are extremely generous behind the scenes.


    Another question worth considering would be, is it very Christian to judge people based on their wealth or lack of it?



  • #10
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119093389#Comment_119093389

    I don't know the answer to this question.

    Has Bill given away a greater % of his wealth than a PAYE worker's earning above €70,000 would pay of that income in Tax, USC, PRSI and VAT and excise duty per year ?


    Some say 'the eye of a needle' refers to a small gate used at night that a camel could only get through if unloaded and coaxed through on it's knees and then reloaded. Difficult but not impossible. Others say other things.



  • #11
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,302 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Bill Gates donates millions per year. He continues to build wealth through his business. The more wealth he has the more he can donate. Bill Gates is planning on leaving less than 1% of his wealth to his children.

    The more he earns now, the more he will leave to the needy.

    Wealth has absolutely nothing to do with being a Christian. There are some not so wealthy people in Ireland who could by very Christian & take in Ukrainian refugees but they choose not to do so. Does this mean that they aren't Christian?



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  • #12
    CrookedJack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭CrookedJack


    This is an interesting question. I would be inclined to think of it from the other perspective.

    It's not about how wealthy you are, rather it's about how poor others are. I think it's fundamentally unchristian for you to have more than you need while others have less than they need. In that case you have the ability to help others but are not doing so, which I would consider counter to the Christian ethos.

    Therefore it's not a question of how much wealth would make you unchristian, but how much poverty that you could prevent, but are not.



  • #13
    Car99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Car99


    Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."



  • #14
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058246763/how-wealthy-can-you-be-before-you-are-no-longer-a-christian

    Have you been to the Vatican? Dripping in priceless artifacts. Have their own trading team. Pay no tax.. how rich you ask... obscenely rich there is no limit



  • #15
    Car99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Car99


    The Vatican and the Catholic church is hardly the poster child of Christianity if you look into it history , recent or more distant.



  • #16
    riffmongous
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,953 ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119093443#Comment_119093443

    The alternative eye of the needle explanation is just made up, theres no actual basis for it



  • #17
    Jellybaby_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    I'm certainly no Bible teacher, but I remember this from my early Bible study days:

    Luke 12:48

    ................From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

    So I take from that, that if I were to become wealthy there is a lot of responsibility put upon me to be to use it wisely and kindly. Just my interpretation. Probably doesn't help answer the OP though.

    Jelly



  • #18
    SuperBowserWorld
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,724 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104311#Comment_119104311


    With great power comes great responsibility.

    And money IS power.

    Not originally a Spiderman quote.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_great_power_comes_great_responsibility




  • #19
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0522/1300533-irish-billionaires-wealth-up-16bn-during-the-pandemic/

    Roughly one million people enter into extreme poverty for every one who becomes a billionaire.

    And that's been happening every 33 hours since the pandemic began.



  • #20
    Jellybaby_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104328#Comment_119104328

    I see now, I didn't know where Spiderman came into it until I checked your link. I got my text from the NIV version of the Bible which I usually access on Bible Gateway.



  • #21
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,655 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099920#Comment_119099920

    some say 'camel' was actually a mistranslation, the correct word was rope, so... how thin can a rope be before its no longer a rope, how big can a needle be...



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  • #22
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,919 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119093485#Comment_119093485

    Given serious levels poverty in the 3rd world and poorer countries, preventing some degree of poverty is within the capability of most people in the developed world. The question you could then ask is that if you generate significant wealth and donate a large part of that to charitable causes does that make you a good or bad person. Many people from most strata of society have an unhealthy obsession with wealth and celebrity which in turn leads to a society where we reward our bankers and pop stars more than our nurses and teachers and allow poverty and homelessness to progress unchecked. In my opinion, this isn't a problem for the individual so much as for society. Similarly, those in need should not be dependant on voluntary charity from individuals or private organisations (with whatever strings may be attached), it should be our collective social responsibility. Extremes of wealth should be coupled with extremes of taxation such that generation of wealth directly helps society rather than depending on so called "trickle down" economics. Just my 2c from a purely secular perspective.



  • #23
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    Remember the Beatitudes say 'blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.' Priests like fancy car driving Fr Sean Healy SMA talk about taxes and redistribution and plastic in oceans and material things in a world which is passing, are just so tiresome. A humble millionaire, who gives to charity quietly, is not in some grave danger of damnation.



  • #24
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119093113#Comment_119093113

    NB you have no idea what your relative gives. Period. We are bidden not to boast. And not to judge. MYOB



  • #25
    Ariadne Bewildered Tackle
    Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Ariadne Bewildered Tackle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119093467#Comment_119093467

    Bill Gates donates millions per year in order to build his wealth through tax breaks.

    With every passing year this miserly 1% grows exponentially.

    Also, how much of Gates' wealth has already been passed on?

    I could plan on leaving 1% of my wealth to you, after offloading 98% of it to Tom, Dicky and Harry.

    **** me, 2022, information has never been more readily been available and people still fall for this muck.



  • #26
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,426 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    So you reckon that for Gates and co. it goes a bit like this...

    Give money away

    Something something

    Profit!

    Sure you can get tax relief on charitable donations you make - same as here - but you're still worse off than if you'd kept hold of the money in the first place.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #27
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭growleaves


    'Bill Gates is planning on leaving less than 1% of his wealth to his children.'

    They will have the connections to get 200k a year jobs right out of the gate. They will not struggle, ever.

    Its surprising to me that anyone can fall for the 'I'm disinheriting my children' line. We live in a patronage economy - why do you think so many people are desperate to get into Ivy league colleges? Because the connections they make from a Harvard MBA will set them up for life.

    No one can say for definite that Gates is laundering money through his Foundation but I think its incredibly naive to hold him up as some kind of beacon of goodness. To put it into perspective: his wife told the Washington Post that his friendship with Epstein was part of the reason she divorced him.

    So his own wife thinks he's an untrustworthy creep who hangs with paedos but Paddy Irishman is meant to look up to him because his P.R. Team sez he's giving money to the 'needy'?

    Come on lads, have a bit of cop on. See through one or two deceptions, its not that hard.

    What it comes down to ultimately:

    Put your trust not in man, but in Christ



  • #28
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668293#Comment_119668293

    This is a disedifying post full of gossip . Shocking on a Christianity forum.



  • #29
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    There is no limit to wealth. It is what you do with what you have. Whether it be the widow;s mite of great riches.

    Please refer to the words of Jesus for this - as for every question about living for Him. He speaks simply and clearly... " Sell all you have and give to the poor" to the rich young man.

    He is Lord. His Word is clear and it is to Him we both respond and answer. Joyfully and gladly



  • #30
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭growleaves


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119671569#Comment_119671569

    What did Jesus say about aggrandising oneself through public displays of charity? It is the same now as it was in Jesus' time, people use a false veneer of goodness to promote themselves.

    Let this billionaire's PR machine defend him, I have no obligations to give the benefit of the doubt to such an obviously wicked person and neither should any spiritually discerning person.



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  • #31
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,094 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It looks like somewhere around $80 million is the cutoff, more than that and you are one with the darkside.

    Pope Francis Net Worth 2022: Age, Height, Weight, Girlfriend, Dating, Bio-Wiki. As of September 2022, Pope Francis has an estimated net worth of about $80 million.



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