Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Podge_irl · 22-09-2022 10:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652924#Comment_119652924

Not only is it a bigger opportunity, but he'll learn more about how to actually play 10 in a proper game.

aloooof · 22-09-2022 11:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652882#Comment_119652882

Not offering this as evidence by any means, but just as an interesting aside, I remember looking into the top 100 oldest players to play at a RWC awhile back and 5 of them were 10's. The breakdown in descending order was:

ROG in 2011 was 35.5
Stephen Jones in 2011 was 35.4
Butch James in 2011 was 34.2
Johnny Sexton in 2019 was 34.2
Dan Parks in 2011 was 34.1

If Sexton doesn't get injured, he's a cert to travel, at which point he'd be overtaking ROG by almost 3 years. He's a machine.

bilston · 22-09-2022 11:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653004#Comment_119653004

I sometimes wonder how he gets out of bed the day after an international. My experience of playing rugby in my late 30s (very social rugby) was not being able to move properly until Tuesday.

Itxa · 23-09-2022 01:09AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653068#Comment_119653068

10 is probably the least attritional position on the pitch. You can canter from ruck to ruck and off load tackling duties to fatties and gorillas. As opposed to back 3 who you might think have the least work to do on the pitch are in fact racking up multiples of shuttle runs and sprints to get across the pitch to cover sweep defence and then get back in position. The amount of park to cover and ground to make up has you shuttle running all day. I’d say back 3 when played properly racks up big digits on the gps tracker and thus has you knackered after games.

ersatz · 23-09-2022 03:46AM

@Podge_irl He’s playing against Benetton with what’s almost a full strength Leinster team. It’s great that he’s playing as we need another option at ten in Leinster and Ireland but this match should not be too taxing. On tour he will be one of the senior players. It’s a totally different experience, whether it’s better or not isn’t obvious tho.

ersatz · 23-09-2022 03:54AM

@aloooof When this tour was planned maybe Leinster had committed to playing him at ten, we don’t know. But nothing last season indicated that it was part of their plans. You are retroactively assuming that Farrell was in a position that he probably wasn’t in. As far as he was concerned if Frawley was going to get time at ten before the WC it would be with Ireland. Arguing that he’s going to learn more playing against Benetton (debatable, see above) is moving the goal posts. To me it looks like Leinster mind was made up by Farrell.

aloooof · 23-09-2022 07:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653294#Comment_119653294

10 is probably the least attritional position on the pitch.

Except that’s not at all how Sexton plays.

He takes it flatter, releases it later and still makes line breaks.

And defensively, to suggest he offloads his tackling duties to fatties and gorillas isn’t remotely close to the truth.

aloooof · 23-09-2022 07:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653367#Comment_119653367

You are retroactively assuming that Farrell was in a position that he probably wasn’t in.

Not at all. I'm assuming there was dialogue between Farrell and Leinster about the possibility of time for Frawley at 10.

You seem to be assuming there was no dialogue, so the IRFU had to setup this tour to offer Frawley time at 10 that he wouldn't get a Leinster.

aloooof · 23-09-2022 07:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653365#Comment_119653365

He’s playing against Benetton with what’s almost a full strength Leinster team... but this match should not be too taxing

The irony here is the first choice internationals wouldn't be playing BUT for this tour.

Podge_irl · 23-09-2022 07:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653365#Comment_119653365

He’s also missing matches against Ulster and the Sharks which would have been plenty taxing.

There is also plenty of precedent of the provinces being dictated to for selection in the URC level at least.

Wegians89 · 23-09-2022 07:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653479#Comment_119653479

Likely sexton will start both those games though.

ersatz · 23-09-2022 08:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653479#Comment_119653479

That's magical thinking, he goes from being nowhere near ten at Leinster to starting 3 matches if he just wasn't gong on the pesky tour with Ireland. He may be getting time at ten because Farrell asked for it or it may be coincidental but one way or another this tour is Farrells way of guaranteeing him some games at ten in the Ireland set up. Leinster may be part of that or may be playing catch up.

stephen_n · 23-09-2022 08:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653294#Comment_119653294

I take it you’ve never seen Sexton play.

stephen_n · 23-09-2022 08:37AM

On Frawley, Harry Byrnes continued absence and almost perma injured state may also be a factor in Leinster looking at Frawley again as a 10. Tector and Prendergast may be the future but this season would be fairly thin if Harry doesn’t manage an injury free run.

ersatz · 23-09-2022 08:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653592#Comment_119653592

Leinster can also shop for Sexton's replacement for next season. I imagine they will.

stephen_n · 23-09-2022 08:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653619#Comment_119653619

You mean a non Irish 10? Never going to happen.

Podge_irl · 23-09-2022 09:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653573#Comment_119653573

Magical thinking? If Farrell can take players away from the provinces for a silly mid-season tour he can certainly make them give a player gametime in a certain position.

If these matches were the only gametime at 10 that Frawley gets then Farrell would be utterly insane to consider him at 10 seriously.

Podge_irl · 23-09-2022 09:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653636#Comment_119653636

Not sure there is really any need for it either - maybe for one year but then who are you going to get that's anyway decent for one year.

stephen_n · 23-09-2022 09:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653758#Comment_119653758

To get someone definitely better than Ross Byrne would be big money. I can’t see the IRFU sanctioning that. There’s a reason that every 10 in the provinces are IQ. Anyone coming in would take minutes from the two young lads. There is very little upside to that.

Podge_irl · 23-09-2022 09:43AM

Yeah, I'm a bit worried about what is behind RB for next season but hopefully one of he academy lads will be flying by the season after. I don't think RB is good enough to win us Europe, but like you say they are not about to splash out on someone significantly better than that.

stephen_n · 23-09-2022 09:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653875#Comment_119653875

Since we are in the Ireland thread. From an Irish perspective I’d be far more worried about succession than from a Leinster perspective. Where RB might be adequate. Nearly every game Ireland play is at European knock out level. We still have no obvious successor. I really hope Crowley steps up and kicks on at Munster.

Podge_irl · 23-09-2022 10:00AM

Ah yes true. All the more reason there will be no NIQ 10 incoming.

Personally I have decided to become irrationally invested in Prendergast.

Itxa · 23-09-2022 10:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653456#Comment_119653456

I’m not necessarily saying sexton does this, I’m just pointing out the possible reasons for the supposed longevity of outhalves.

23-09-2022 10:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654013#Comment_119654013

Yeah, but your point was overly focused on the miles a player racks up from just running around the field as a rationale as well. Even a 10 who stands deep in the pocket and has a first instinct to kick is still getting hit a lot in games. You'll also face a very steady stream of defensive work down that channel.

The injuries and attrition that cause someone to stop playing the game are much likelier to occur in the multitude of collisions you're involved in rather than just the amount of ground you can cover.

I think a key reason why half backs can usually play to an older age than other positions is that you can get away with a lower level of athleticism given the importance of the roles in dictating the game. Losing a couple of yards at pace won't be found out as quickly at 10 as it will elsewhere in the backline.

Itxa · 23-09-2022 10:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654058#Comment_119654058

Point taken. Not being exposed to losing an extra yard of pace is likely another reason. But the muscle mass you lose by running sprints every game exposes the body to future injury at back three also.

At ten you can drift out off first phase and leave the ten channel to back row. Likewise off following phases. It’s possible to avoid tackling forwards if you organise your back row properly.

aloooof · 23-09-2022 11:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654058#Comment_119654058

Spot on, tbh. There’s a reason a 6/2 split is a thing and a 4/4 isn’t.

Dubinusa · 23-09-2022 02:02PM

It's the up and coming lads that will be the future. Minus Sexton, Carberry is next up. Is he good enough? Time will tell. I don't think he is. RB is not good enough, nor is Carty.

Burns could be a placeholder. He seems to be a prototype 10. Minus the goal kicking.

The monkey on our back is HB! He's just not got the matches in his cv. His physicality is questionable and although he's still young, it's hard to see him staying fit for any period of time.

Then there's Healy, Flannery and Crowley!! I think one of these lads could do the business, eventually. Who knows, Hawkshaw may grab the bull by the nads and stake a claim! Tector and Prendergast? Both look talented and hopefully can make a run at the provincial level.

Besides oh, the cupboard is fairly bare in other areas. Loose head for one. Going into a world cup with Kilcoyne or Healy is not ideal. Hopefully Loughman or someone else can have a stormer of a season. Likewise with 9. Murray doesn't inspire confidence, Casey or someone else must step up.

A nothing tour will at least get young players into the system. A good environment and tour could benifit the youngster down the road. Frawley will have to deliver something! If he's seen as a 10, time is short.. .

23-09-2022 02:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655286#Comment_119655286

Frawley is obviously seen as a 10. He's not seen exclusively as a 10, but his selection in the Maori games there (for whatever reason) and his selection there tonight, plus everything that's been said by the Irish coaching staff about him, indicate he is clearly part of their thought process at the position.

You say time is short for him, but suggest other guys like Healy, Flannery, Crowley or Hawkshaw have a better opportunity? He's clearly seen as ahead of all of those guys (except possibly Ben Healy) by the Irish coaches, and clearly seen as considerably ahead of David Hawkshaw by the Leinster coaches.

He's 24 (25 in 3 months), and, with the exception of Healy, he's gotten considerably more rugby into him than any of those guys you mention, who are largely 23 years old.

If we take 3 OHs to the RWC; right now, you'd have to figure Ciaran Frawley is in pole position to be the third guy taken. Sexton & Carbery are currently ensconced as 1 & 2, and after that it's a question as to whether or not he opts for an experienced guy like Jack Carty, Ross Byrne or Billy Burns, or a younger guy who could emerge this season (Ben Healy the only likely candidate here in my opinion).

There's a lot of rugby to be played between now and then.

Former Former Former · 23-09-2022 04:00PM

I think the fact that Frawley is the only 'emerging player' allowed to play this weekend is very significant. I would bet that if he was going to be playing 12 or 22, Ireland wouldn't have released him.

phog · 23-09-2022 06:08PM

Outhalf is really a problem position for us, we really lack depth there.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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