General Premier League Thread 2022-23 - mod note in OP 12/03/23

machiavellianme · 21-09-2022 11:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645776#Comment_119645776

Absolutely - except Man City and PSG (apparently)

BobDole22 · 21-09-2022 12:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645830#Comment_119645830

Man City are fiddling sponsorship there's no doubt about that but they are already part of the elite FFP and the new PL rules are specifically targeted at those clubs trying to break the monopoly. In the first instance they are limited on what they can spend to bridge the gap and then they are limited in what they can earn in order to bridge the gap it is absolutely criminal and anti competitive.

ArmaniJeanss · 21-09-2022 01:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645910#Comment_119645910

"Criminal and anti competitive".

How is it criminal? Maybe you don't mean in a legal sense.

Anti-competitive. Yeah, I'll give you that. But to a large extent football fans don't want competition. True business competition leads to a healthy failure rate (roughly 10% of businesses close each year I believe). But when a club aims for the stars and it goes badly wrong (they fail and then they either fold, or go close to folding) no-one seems to regard it as a desirable natural outcome. Instead we get loud demands for rule changes to protect clubs from 'bad' owners, appeals to save clubs because of their devastated fan-base and historic importance to their locality etc

But when the EPL or UEFA put rules in place to prevent these crash and burn events, then 'anti-competitive/protection of the elite' gets thrown their way. And to a large extent it's a valid claim.

It just seems a really difficult conundrum.

BobDole22 · 21-09-2022 01:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119646232#Comment_119646232

Yeah sorry a poorly chosen figure of speech rather than literally criminal. I think FFP was brought in for the right reasons in theory but in practice it has served to protect the elite. The new PL rules are another story they are designed specifically to prevent competition and preserve the status of the current top 6 at the expense of the rest its blatantly anti competitive.

Agent Coulson · 21-09-2022 10:16PM

This will probably put an end to flares at games and pitch invasions

https://twitter.com/henrywinter/status/1572607414595198980?s=46&t=A6l65S6M1ax0Yzlvu0Ai2g

BobDole22 · 22-09-2022 09:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648663#Comment_119648663

They'll ban singing soon enough.

martyos121 · 22-09-2022 10:01AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649527#Comment_119649527

The ultras will get around that too very easily;

Interpretive dance.

BobDole22 · 22-09-2022 02:29PM

We see today that Manchester United lost £115.5 million last year yet were the highest spenders in world football this summer. It seems under FFP it's one rule for the elite and another for everyone else.

Cookiemunster · 22-09-2022 03:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651125#Comment_119651125

You've no idea what you're on about there chief. Utd are well within the FFPs rules and only spend money that they've earned legitimately. They spent above their intended transfer budget for this summer and that will be recouped by lower than planned spending over the next two windows.

And Chelsea spent around £50m more than Utd. So definitely not the highest spenders in world football.

BobDole22 · 22-09-2022 03:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651297#Comment_119651297

Amazing that you managed to completely ignore the part about the 115.5 million pound loss last year which must be a breach of FFP as clubs are only allowed to lose 105 million over 3 years. On the second point yes you're right Chelsea spent more so ye were the second highest spenders in world football after losing 115.5 million quid in a year.

Quazzie · 22-09-2022 03:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651391#Comment_119651391

If they make a profit of 10.5 million next year they'll be ok going by your math

BobDole22 · 22-09-2022 04:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651406#Comment_119651406

They lost money the year before as well now(92 million I think) so did everyone else because of COVID but its 2 seasons in a row with massive losses they must be sailing close to the wind in terms of FFP.

Agent Coulson · 22-09-2022 06:25PM

West Ham have hired Mark Noble as there new Sporting Director.

Fitz* · 22-09-2022 06:51PM

Man United might spend an obscene amount of money, but to be fair, it's their own money. They generate it because of their success between 1990 - to 2015 give or take. Also they had a massive stadium before that to give them the cash. You'd trust the figures they put out.

They might have lower amounts of cash to spend in the future when they are not as successful and sponsorships amounts lower, but that hasn't happened yet.

There's a few clubs who outspend everyone else, and should be looked at closer, but I don't think Man United are one. They can be criticized on how they spend it, but not how they source it.

theoneeyedman · 22-09-2022 07:26PM

Even the City apologists are losing interest, only one half hearted defence 2 days after the latest financial doping story, and even that is a classic 'whataboutery' defence pointing the fingers at United'S spending.

The heart is being ripped out of the game.....

BobDole22 · 22-09-2022 07:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652154#Comment_119652154

Those are 2 separate issues though like everyone knows Man Utd earn their own money and massive amounts of it unlike City's sugar daddy money but they lost 92 million 2 seasons ago and 115.5 last season why are hemorrhaging money? FFP says you can only lose 105 over 3 years they've lost 207.5 in 2 years.

Maybe I'm missing something here maybe it's not a big deal that Man utd are recording such losses but my untrained eye they look disastrous.

ArmaniJeanss · 22-09-2022 08:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652383#Comment_119652383

There's a mistake in your maths as it seems you are taking their loss as reported to the stock exchange (i.e., their official filed accounts) and assuming that's the figure which is used for FFP. That's wrong.

If for example they invested £XM in the women's team, £YM in the youth team & £ZM in a new training ground, then all those will be a negative on the official balance sheet obviously. But for FFP purposes these are ignored so the actual FFP figure will be that £115m-Xm-Ym-Zm. There's lot of other forms of expenditure which don't count in FFP but would matter in a set of accounts.

I think there is also some workaround such that the 'Covid years' losses are weighted down for FFP, possibly as much as 50%.

23-09-2022 08:08AM

Utd aren't financial cheats. City are.

That's the difference.

BobDole22 · 23-09-2022 09:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652454#Comment_119652454

Thanks for the explanation I appreciate it that makes more sense alright. I still think are a huge questions to be asked as to how Manchester United are posting such losses I know the Glazers are dipping the till but I don't think that explains all of it. Is there any way to find out losses for FFP purposes?

BobDole22 · 23-09-2022 09:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653705#Comment_119653705

Separate issues though Man City's accounts are very healthy(we all know where the money really comes from) Man Utd's are not. Leicester lost 119 million last year and are in meltdown Man Utd lost 115.5 and it is business as usual.

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2022 09:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654079#Comment_119654079

Utds turnover is nearly £600m. Leicesters is around £210m. Utd are a far more valuable club with much larger revenue streams, so it's much easier to absorb the loss.

Also it's completely wrong to say it's business as usual at Utd. Players wages this season have reduced by 25% for not being in the CL. And transfer business in the next two windows will be well below the last window, with the likelihood that no business will be done in the January window.

Fitz* · 23-09-2022 09:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654153#Comment_119654153

They are lucky that the wage bill reduced. They had the largest wage bill in PL history last season, and nothing to show for it.

Mitch Connor · 23-09-2022 09:52AM

IMO FFP should be used to ensure clubs don't go under by spending more than they can afford to service.

But if the City owner wants to give City 1billion as a gift or whatever, so there is no debt burden placed on the club to pay it back, I genuinely can't see why they should not be allowed to - when the reason isn't so that other clubs aren't blown out of the water.

There is or could be arguments for stopping clubs from spending fortunes more than their rivals in order to keep the sport competitive, but it doesn't seem like any FFP has been designed with that goal in mind, really.

breezy1985 · 23-09-2022 11:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654241#Comment_119654241

FFP only affects teams in Europe too so does nothing to keep the chasing pack in check and they are usually the boom/bust group.

The lower tiers are still a mess and teams can become extinct at the whim of one dodgy owner.

~Rebel~ · 23-09-2022 11:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654241#Comment_119654241

I'd like to see something like this taken into account alright, but with a structure that safeguards the club against an owner losing interest, and has measures to preserve competition.

So, let's say Bezos buys Brighton - he could either allow it to run under its own steam, or opt to pump money in. If he does the latter, he should be required to put some very large figure into an escrow account so that the club has an emergency fund there in case he ramps up their costs beyond their means and then pulls out (as was a genuine risk at Chelsea). On top of this, there should be a structure for controlled spending and growth - say, 150% of revenue until you attain a top four position (or some other achievement benchmark), and then it drops down for each year you maintain it. There should also perhaps be a penalty/tax for overspending - say 10% of the spending above your revenue goes back into the league/pyramid.

(As a part of all this, I would prefer even more profit sharing from the bigger teams, with the CL money etc going across the whole league)

theoneeyedman · 23-09-2022 11:46AM

I often find it interesting that in US sports, where the word socialist is the highest insult you can throw at anyone, they actively spread the resources (players especially) and TV revenues to encourage fairer competition, whereas in a more social/democratic Europe, the biggest sport is a free for all open to all sorts of shenanigans and financial chicanery.

I don't like City's owners, and don't like how their money and the likes of those at PSG and the Roman years at Chelsea have distorted the market, but they are still better IMHO to the likes of the Glazers and the guys at Burnley who bring nothing to the table, saddle the club with debt, and put the existence of the club at risk.

Few in football want FFP, it can't be enforced and too many enjoy the gravy when it's being shared around, and that includes the likes of Uefa, the FA and others.

breezy1985 · 23-09-2022 12:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654857#Comment_119654857

The USA which is the size of Europe ring fence the league for the top 20 odd clubs.

Your socialist spreading of resources would lead to the European Super League.

Agent Coulson · 23-09-2022 02:36PM

Premier League set for its own Drive to Survive-style Netflix series..

The Premier League has been approached by the film company behind Netflix’s hit programme Formula 1: Drive To Survive to propose a series on the streaming platform focusing on English football’s top flight.

Clubs were informed about the approach this week and talks will now take place to sound out a potential project that they hope could match the success of the motor racing series.

The production company behind the plans is the British-based Box To Box Films, which has also made The Kings series on boxing for Showtime and Make Us Dream — a documentary about Steven Gerrard — for Amazon.

It is understood that Box To Box have also been in touch with individual Premier League clubs............

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/premier-league-set-for-its-own-drive-to-survive-style-netflix-series-23znjd5sd

theoneeyedman · 23-09-2022 05:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655009#Comment_119655009

More like 30 + clubs, 32 in the NFL for instance.

The So called super league is already very close in truth, most leagues Europe have been distorted by European Money coming back from Uefa competitions, that distorts the individual leagues.

I wouldn't be in favour of it, but it's coming.

My point in the Americans though was that within those limited elite leagues, the money and players are shared out better than in Europe, they at least try.

breezy1985 · 23-09-2022 05:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656616#Comment_119656616

20 or 30 whatever the point still is that US sport is a million miles from socialist. They don't even have a team for every state and the only way to get one is loads of money.

General Premier League Thread 2022-23 - mod note in OP 12/03/23

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