Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof · 15-09-2022 09:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620532#Comment_119620532

Conway does seem to be a Farrell favourite tho; Farrell's unbotheredness (?) by pecking orders worked in Conway's favour, where he started ahead of Earls in Farrell's first Test.

Personally think Hansen and Conway are the front-runners at the moment, but that could well change, not least down to injuries. All our wingers tho seem to have something to set them apart from the rest . e.g. Conway in the air, Larmour footwork, Lowe physicality and offloading. It could also come down to what Farrell is looking for.

starkid · 15-09-2022 09:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620179#Comment_119620179

classy again with the insult. sure come out swinging, why not?

but no thats not what i meant at all. but since you bring it up, it could be debated for sure. it was definitely noticable in soccer up until recently ( i worked as an analyst for an agent at youth football tournaments)and also before you say another word just know i have a mixed race daughter myself. so don't try to paint this as anything.

Rugby in this country has been slow to break the traditional bonds. thankfully that is slowly changing. more is needed. to say it was backboned by a small set of schools and traditions is not controversial. but of course you of all posters could make it so. same in England, Genge and Jones were totally correct in what they said about English rugby. no player has been ignored and it would be impossible to prove otherwise. however unconcious bias is a thing.

We have huge communities of Polish, Latvian, European, African, Asian etc some even third generation now. its great we are finally being able to tap into it. Munster have two twin brothers with eastern european heritage playing schools. absolute units. anyway i think some of the issues are too complext to talk about here and lead down a rabbit hole. the same debates abound in NFL scouting etc. Jordan COnroy is a prime example. his pace simply wouldnt be ignored in other countries. and while its debatable, his athleticism most likely comes from his heritage. Baloucoune was nearly missed by the system as well, but fortunately (maybe due to the way schools are there and not bound by private hang ups) he was recognised. Somebody like Conor Owende who i played against a few times was very unlucky to miss out on a pro career. Unreal player and a better player than Jerry Sexton was. Look who missed out on the most recent Olympics which as O'Sullivan said was a shocking decision. https://andscape.com/features/implicit-bias-and-the-nfl-draft/ a possible reverse thing going on here? Most likely not but don't pretend its not something that is or can't bediscussed. Other nations have similar issues, look at old comments from certain commentators about Maori or Islander players etc, the finer details of what Genge and Jones were saying. this country has been slow to change, and as i know personally myself there is still a racism issue in this country.

HOWEVER i was mainly recognising it as great. As i said it was done in soccer and athletics. its important to recognise it in rugby. Obvious Nij was a great representative, unfortunately just wasn't good enough. some of the young guns could be generational talents. Edogbo and his brother look like future stars, also out of non traditional cobh. its great to see. so stop spinning it into a thing.

lets move on but i needed to set you straight. of course he is there on merit, you are inventing things i didn't say.

and we are pretty close to the point where nobody bats an eyelid. but people do recognise it. and thats mainly what i was doing.

Irish rugby has broken some interesting ground in all facets. Nick McCarthy, Dunne was fantastic. next i would love to see Irish rugby break into the inner city. people talk of the US etc, we can't even get the game loved here in certain pockets. Again not a controversial thing to say.

ANYWAY I will shut up about off topic stuff....

Obviously to bring it back to the current point, damaging the URC with these tours, weakening the AIL won't help as its the vehicle the game is driven on but on the other hand getting say a bronze at least in the Rugby World Cup would help. winning it could transform the sport on this ISland. so if thats what the coaches think this tour will help with, fine. Jackman and Fitzgerald didn't think much of it. and i tend to agree.

Actually i thought Okeke might have a shot for this tour (i thought Deegan and Kendallan would be deemed provincially needed). Ironically now he'll probably get a few appearances off the bench for Munster. maybe its a win win tour. young guys with Ireland, and some young guys with provinces. And thats clearly positive.

Also i wonder why Vakh wasn't selected(which fits into the same discussion). i think he's talented enough to become a full international. which again would be great for this country.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 09:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620547#Comment_119620547

The Leinster starting 23? Is that really accurate tho? I'd say maybe 2 of those at best, and that accounting for injuries and form.

We are talking about the Leinster 23 for a URC match in October here, not a champions cup final. Yes all of those players would most definitely be in frame for the starting 23.

molloyjh · 15-09-2022 10:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620545#Comment_119620545

Maybe, but the versatility thing is probably going to be important. And Balacoune is pretty much a right wing only. Given the talent ahead of him and his lack of versatility, plus his lack of experience in the team and at that level, he has it all to do IMO.

As PS said above though, Farrell has been happy to parachute guys in when he reckons they deserve it, so those issues are probably less of a blocker for him than they may have been under another coach.

awec · 15-09-2022 10:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620737#Comment_119620737

You're still not seeing it.

For other provinces, even with their internationals back, the players they are losing are high up the depth charts. Many of them are still first 23 players, some are even first 15.

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:16AM

not utilising Balacoune will be criminal.

They clearly rate him. Obviously he's on the tour for this reason. rather than a sort of punishment/demotion.

However if he doesn't get game time in Nov it will be ridiculous.

His pace is something we simply cannot ignore.

Obvs injuries played a factor but he was wasted last Nov, he can't get experience if not given the chance.

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620816#Comment_119620816

yeah the only response you need to give is Jackman's comments. he clearly knows in at least this instance what he's talking about. of course it doesn't tally with what Easterbuy saids or wants (as another poster tried to argue). thats a given.

"Realistically, what can we find out? If Ciaran Frawley has a stormer against the Griquas, what's it worth? Jackman sums it up in one sentence basically.

being on tour with no real pressure does nothing for the reality of a World Cup.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 10:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620737#Comment_119620737

That's exactly the point tho; if any of the other provinces were playing a champions cup final (and lord knows we're miles away from that), they're missing players who would be in that 23. Leinster aren't.

The reality is, other provinces are missing players higher up their depth chart. (Not as many as I initially feared when the Maori game was mentioned, and not so many that I think it's a massive problem, but I absolutely understand why fans of other Provinces could be annoyed).

Particularly Ulster tbh; last season they were 2 80+ min tries away from a home final. Either of those go the other way, and they could've been looking at their first silverware since 2006.

Put another way, it'd essentially be the equivalent of Ulster losing Rob Lyttle but Leinster losing James Lowe.

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:26AM

i mean lets be honest its also a weird squad.

Deeny selected. has barely played in 2 years i think, and other locks left out. Like if it was really about some prep would Thornbury or Murray etc not be there.

it kind of makes no sense in any aspect.

Paul Smeenus · 15-09-2022 10:29AM

Do they want to find anything out, though? Is this really an opportunity for these players to "prove" anything? Or do the coaches just want to have time training with them and familiarising them with Ireland's systems?

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:30AM

yeah so why not hold a camp in Ireland or play locally. none of it makes sense. the lack of Andy Farrell, the opposition and location (as a sop to the SARU most likely), the squad, the timing.

none of it will matter come the World Cup. Easterbuy basically said he wants Frawley to run the tour like Sexton, see what he's made of. but against the likes of the griqas, the answer has to be so what?

its the equivalent of playing Bayonne in 03. its a nothing burger.

and if its about the future as some suggest, well then why not play in the normal windows or shock horror filter a few guys into games against the weaker teams or again shock horror in the numerous a games.

awec · 15-09-2022 10:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620891#Comment_119620891

If it's the later a few days in Blanchardstown would have been much cheaper and less disruptive.

Former Former Former · 15-09-2022 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620816#Comment_119620816

I count two first XV players in Baloucoune and Prendergast. Two possibles in Blade and Kendellen. After that, it's wider squad players.

Don't think any province is particularly hard hit really but Leinster certainly aren't.

It's an odd idea but really the impact on provinces is pretty minimal (and of short duration)

connachta · 15-09-2022 11:13AM

The issue is not now. It's about potential injuries

Josh Muprhy for Prendergast

Marmion for Blade with prominsig Colm Reilly to play barely 15 min behind

Stewart experience for D Tiernay Martin

that ok

But

If Murphy/Marms/Stewart got injured

It's Devine, De Buitlear, Booth who comes behind, Academy and no pro games behind them.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 11:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621102#Comment_119621102

Additionally, if touring players return injured (which, inevitably, you’d imagine some will) it’s likely to attract more negative comments.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 11:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620816#Comment_119620816

Who? For your best 23, only Baloucoune and Doak would be there.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 11:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620861#Comment_119620861

McCarthy and Frawley were in the 23 for the Final 4 months ago.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 12:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621273#Comment_119621273

Yep. And Baird and Larmour only returned from injury the previous week. And since then Leinster have added Jenkins too.

Shehal · 15-09-2022 12:24PM

I still get why people are getting their knickers in a twist over this? Its 2-3 weeks of valuable experience inside an international set up with top class coaches away from home....continuing to protest about this is storm in a tea cup territory.

Its like people on here are just looking for excuses to moan at this rate...

15-09-2022 12:44PM

Well good to see the URC is getting so much respect these days

Shehal · 15-09-2022 12:49PM

The same people who **** on the URC on a daily basis are now coming out in force complaining about Irish players missing URC games...which camp is it? It cant be both.

Shehal · 15-09-2022 12:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621102#Comment_119621102

Its 2-3 games max...im sure they'll manage.

15-09-2022 12:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621479#Comment_119621479

You surely, surely see why those 2 things are related?

Shehal · 15-09-2022 12:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621510#Comment_119621510

How exactly?

Dubinusa · 15-09-2022 01:04PM

The URC is now a decent league! The bokke teams ensure that! Leinster won6breeze into a final.

This tour is bizarre, imo. Sam Illo is as close to an international team as I am!. Deeny also! The timing is poor, the opposition is poor and besides learning systems and the set up, how many of these players will make it as international class players?

I suppose it's something different and maybe a couple of lads can claw their way up into the fringes of the international set up. This should have happened pre season or during an international window.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 01:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621313#Comment_119621313

You are second guessing selections though. Even if they had been fit, how can you be sure that either would have been in the 23 ahead of the others. McCarthy could have been selected for size. Frawley was very much a more likely pick than Larmour even if Jordan was fit. He has been an integral part of the match day 23 all season.

The fact remains we are losing two players who were good enough to make match day squad for the final of the premier competition in Europe. You can try play it down all you want but they are significant players for Leinster. As are Deegan and Penney.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 02:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621774#Comment_119621774

You are second guessing selections though

Yep, there's an element of guessing involved, but I don't think the depth chart I posted is a million miles off either. (And I'd disagree entirely with your assessment that Frawley was very much a more likely pick than Larmour even if Jordan was fit. Frawley was the only player that day who didn't come off the bench).

With regards this:

...they are significant players for Leinster. As are Deegan and Penney.

Would you say there are as significant for Leinster as, say Doak and Baloucoune are for Ulster? Or Prendergast and Blade are for Connacht? They clearly aren't. That's the whole point.

sydthebeat · 15-09-2022 02:46PM

round 1

ulster play connacht this weekend, so both teams down some squad players = argument negated for both teams for this weekend.

round 2

ulster and connacht both away.

connacht away to stormers who will be without their test players due to rugby championship =argument negated for connacht

ulster should have enough for scarlets away

round 3

connacht away to bulls, without their test players = argument negated for connacht

ulster home to leinster, both teams down squad players = argument negated for ulster

so between ulster and connacht im really only seeing 1 game where you could possibly argue a team has been put at an unfair advantage, and that ulster away to scarlets.

awec · 15-09-2022 03:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622108#Comment_119622108

This is a really bizarre take, I'm going to be honest.

Why do you think both teams having players away negates the argument?

Why do you think another team not having their test players negates the argument?

aloooof · 15-09-2022 03:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622108#Comment_119622108

This is too simplistic, and built on the assumption the players missing have equal significance to their Provinces. Which is not true.

The reality is Baloucoune and Doak, and Prendergast and Blade are more significant losses to Ulster and Connacht then Frawley and McCarthy are to Leinster. Drawing an equivalence there is just not accurate.

Put simply, do you think all Provinces are losing players at equal levels of their depth chart?

(And as an aside, if, say, Connacht have an advantage over the SA teams due to the RC and the format, we should be trying to maximise that, not even if up for the benefit of the SA teams. And speaking of unfair advantage, Connacht themselves are already at a disadvantage with the additional interpro's).

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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