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Official meaning for flashing amber filter light

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  • 01-09-2022 12:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭


    i've been trying to find the official legal meaning for this traffic light.


    All I can find is https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1975/si/281/made/en/print

    "A driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows a flashing amber light may proceed beyond the stop line at that light (or, if there is no such stop line, beyond the light) but shall yield the right of way to pedestrians crossing the roadway at the said lamp."


    this seems like the one for a pelican crossing. I'm trying to find what the official legal meaning of a flashing yellow filter left or right is . Not whats in the RotR



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,276 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    a flashing yellow filter left or right is a flashing amber light. Why do you think the rules for filter lights would be different to what is in the act?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭trellheim


    I don't know ! Thats why I am asking here as there may be people who know more than I



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,218 ✭✭✭Miscreant


    What you have quoted is the official meaning. It is a Statutory Instrument notice and it makes up part of the legal statute. Flashing amber arrow means you can proceed if the way is clear but must yield to pedestrians at the crossing. It does not convey right of way at a junction so you should treat it like a yield sign if there are no pedestrians present also.

    I have only ever seen flashing amber arrows on left turns in Ireland, I have yet to see one for a right-hand turn but it could just be the roads I drive regularly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,276 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    you misunderstood. a flashing amber filter light is a type of flashing amber light so the regulations for flashing amber lights apply to flashing amber filter lights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Thanks thats been my interpretation as well . There seems to be a thing at the moment where it means also give way to cyclists as well coming up on your left even if they are behind you . If you are at Dublin Parkgate turning left up Infirmary Road the flashing yellow is there but it comes after the pedestrian lights so I am not sure where DCC are going with it.


    ( see "This will reinforce the existing road regulations, requiring turning vehicles to give way to cyclists proceeding straight ahead at a junction. ") https://twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1564896755166109696



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭trellheim


    im not getting into cyclists vs motorists just want to be clear on the rules



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,085 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    I always thought that a flashing yellow was to be treated as a yield sign, and a flashing red, was to be treated as a stop sign.



  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭Codpeas


    In terms of looking up the intended meaning for any of this the best place to head is the Traffic Signs Manual:

    Traffic Signs Manual | trafficsigns.ie

    Chapter 9 covers Traffic Signals and in particular section 9.2 covers many of the different configurations of Traffic lights. The full red, full amber, amber arrow variant is known as RTS004 Alternate Configuration and details of RTS004 configs can be found at 9.2.15 and onwards.

    The wording they give is that these configs require that "vehicles must yield to conflicting traffic and pedestrian movements and may only proceed if safe to do so" which is a bit generic. One config that it doesn't properly call out is where RTS004 is combined with RTC004 (Pelican crossing) as that would then give pedestrians a red which should then mean that the amber arrow reduces to yielding to conflicting traffic movements.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭trellheim


    So to take the example at Parkgate that pedestrian crossing is already fully protected with a green man crossing with so I am not sure what the intent is that isnt already covered in the rules of the road



  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭Codpeas


    In that instance the cyclists are the 'conflicting traffic movement'. They have a green to go straight on, you have an amber to turn left. They win.

    It could be viewed as overkill to spell it out with RTS hardware but it probably gives someone a warm and fuzzy feeling to think they're saving the cycling world from us horrible motorists.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭harmless


    Yes, my understanding is that even if the amber filter light was green a car has to cross over the cycle lane to take the left turn. Before entering a lane you have to give way to traffic(in this case bikes) already in the lane.

    The filter light is just a reminder but I think many will be confused by it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Don't think so, more likely that cyclists just can't be bothered by the laws on overtaking left signalling vehicles. So now the council in there wisdom have put a yield onus onto the vehicle's drivers who are more likely to actually follow the road rules.

    (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Don't think so, more likely that cyclists just can't be bothered by the laws on overtaking left signalling vehicles. So now the council in there wisdom have put a yield onus onto the vehicle's drivers who are more likely to actually follow the road rules.

    You really can't help yourself, can you? 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    As I said the council have transferred the onus from the cyclists to obey an SI signed into law to something else. i.e Overtaking on the left of a left turning vehicle



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    In my opinion I and most other drivers have more to lose from not following traffic laws than cyclists. Perhaps as usual you have lost the plot and reasoning of a thread again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,594 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You might lose your license. The cyclist might lose their life.

    With 98% of drivers breaking urban speed limits, and the majority of drivers using their phones at the wheel, how exactly did you work out that drivers are more likely to obey traffic laws?



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭GalwayMan74




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Can you specify where the junctions or sections of road are, that you believe the cyclists to be overtaking on the left at?

    It sounds like you might confused by the rules of the road, so people here would be happy to help you understand them better.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You've little to be worrying about so! Maybe that's why you pass time here making up stuff!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,921 ✭✭✭kirving



    Considering, S.I. No. 332/2012 (below)

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print


    From the point of view of a driver moving slowly and signaling to turn left, and a cyclist going straight, what is the difference between the two situations below that means a flashing amber over a solid green is selected?





  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭I told ya


    As someone who does a 22km cycle to work and home, five days a week, through the city centre, I can safely say that the majority of motorists are not using their phones at the wheel. There is certainly a percentage using a phone, but nowhere near 50%+1.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    DCC are correct, you are misinterpreting the regulations and are missing one important cavaet from S10 (5)(b)(i) of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 as amended, it is limited in scope by S8.

    The 2012 amendment does indeed add in a general stipulation as you suggest that a cyclist must not overtake on the left a vehicle which is indicating to turn left, but it's a very general provisio which for example does not deal with situations where there lanes or junctions, such situations are covered elsewhere.

    There are specific provisions (S8 (2), (3) and (8) for example) dealing with lanes and junctions which requires the driver of a mechanically propelled vehicle to yield right of way to the cyclist on their left, the general 2012 amendments to S10 do not trump the specific requirements of S8, a specific yield provisio over rides a general do not overtake provisio.

    Post edited by GM228 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭trellheim


    As with all left turns you'd be checking the mirror anyway and any cyclist with any city experience will be watching for signs of a car turning left , because they normally can and do so.


    What I am trying to get at is 99% of busy junctions dont have the flashing amber but still have cyclists coming up on the left so you look out for them... so what's the difference ?


    e.g if you were driving north up rathmines and turning left along the canal, by that logic the left turn should be a flashing amber as its one of the busiest bike lanes in town



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,921 ✭✭✭kirving


    I always look out for cyclists on my left, but I'm consistently amazed by how many put their lives in the hands of a motorist, who yes, should know better, but may still turn left anyway.

    Anyway, I think the main contention (from many cyclists that I've seen) is that the flashing amber is new, and as such people don't understand it's meaning wrt. cycle lane, since in most implementations, it's used to signal right of way for traffic coming from your right, or pedestrians crossing, rather than a cyclist in your left mirror, as below.




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    None of those specifically refer to a cyclist, where as the 2012 SI for overtaking on the left specifies cyclists, does not a later SI supercede an earlier one?

    Also I believe we had an answer in the legal forum sometime back that there's only one accepted road marking to designate a traffic lane and the broken line for a shared cycle track/lane isn't supported as such.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,594 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Two professional surveys in recent years, one from Liberty Insurance (sample size over 6,000 iirc) and one from Toyota asked motorists in Ireland if they used their phones while driving. Both got responses indicating that a majority of drivers use their phones at the wheel.

    So you can take limited observation with confirmation bias and anecdote, or two professional surveys - take your pick.

    BTW, all those drivers with their phones on their laps, just to make they maximise the distraction effect, are breaking the law too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    I don't believe the surveys were differentiating between using a hands free system or holding a phone.

    The detail seems to be lacking though I do agree that some people can't even hold a conversation with a passenger in the car without having to turn and look at them and not watch the road.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ah catch yourself on. Stand at the side of any road and watch how many of the cars that go by are being driven by people using a phone. It's a sizable percentage.



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