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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    “The 21-year-old driver was detected speeding on the M7 motorway between Monasterevin and Kildare. 

    The motorist was driving at a speed of 208km/h in the 120km/h zone.”

    Why can’t we all drive at over 200km/h?? This lad did it and no one got hurt.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    100% people know this. It is only a pretence when they dispute it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,799 ✭✭✭plodder


    By the same reasoning, there also hasn't been any safety incidents in professional boxing yet either. Afaik, there hasn't been any applications from trans gender women to join professional boxing. If there were, this whole issue would have come to a head much quicker I'd say, because the risks are truly frightening in that sport. But, the statement is still correct "there have been no safety incidents".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,635 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,963 ✭✭✭✭Rothko




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Wishful thinking I'm afraid. Fallon Fox and Alana McLaughlin (both male and former military who transitioned in their thirties) beat the crap out of women they fought in MMA, much to the abject horror of the vast majority of onlookers.

    TRAs didn't blink. And until very recently the majority of people didn't speak up for fear of those TRAs going after them.

    Cutting the teeth out of the activists was always going to be the way. Very relieved to see it happening, even if Ireland will lag behind other countries (as it always does, when women's and children's rights are involved).

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    The mad thing is everyone knows that trans women have a huge physical advantage, that there would be a safety issue and that they will inevitably dominate women't sport if they compete in it. But it's still a controversial subject.

    There'd be no need for women's sport at all if those arguing against the IRFU ruling were correct.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There isn't such ignorance though. It's all feigned, based on putting ideology before reality. Then comes the gas-lighting ("women need to try harder", "it's depicting women as helpless little snowflakes").



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I'm going to quibble on "everyone".

    Brains are weird and wonderful things, and ideology can make people believe absurdities. There are a very small number of people who do actually believe that when adult human males profess a belief that they are women, their physical bodies and the advantages conferred by them become irrelevant. Just like there are people who believe that they're eating the literal flesh of Christ on a Sunday morning and people who believe the Earth is flat.

    I don't believe any of those things, but in the modern day only one of those groups is trying to force me to go along with their belief and say their prayers (pronouns, and so on).

    Those people are not persuadable, but that's okay. They're a small minority and easy to work around.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I honestly don't think anyone actually believes it though. Sure, they use sufficient doublethink to convince themselves but as for genuinely believing... no I don't think that's possible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭sekiro


    If the money is right and the rules are relaxed enough then who knows? Maybe someday you'll see 8 women lining up to run the 100 meters at the history of each participant will be that they have transitioned at some point. Maybe someday every women's record out there will be broken by a woman who has transitioned before competing. For now it seems confined to only a handful of cases in a handful of sports but the numbers are only going to increase from here.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,437 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @mikethecop and @Overheal stop the back and forth sniping at each other. If there's a problematic post report it and move on, don't make it worse on thread by baiting each other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,799 ✭✭✭plodder


    Yes, I've heard of them and while I know even less about MMA than I know about boxing, but my suspicion is that it could be worse in boxing given the concentration on upper body strength and punches to the head etc, whereas MMA has a bit more variety to it. Could be total nonsense, of course, but I think there will/would be a very severe backlash if it were to happen in boxing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,663 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Serena Williams is retiring from tennis because she wants to have another child. Just another biological reality for a female and something that no male athlete ever has to contend with. But maybe she just needs to try harder because biological differences between males and females aren't a thing according to some? I guess things like menstruation and pregnancy will cease to become an obstacle for women athletes when they were all born males



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,578 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    If there was an incident and the policy was brought in you'd still criticise it as a knee jerk reaction.

    I would think the IRFU considered the world rugby guidelines and have taken .

    World rugby have provided a very detailed explanation for how they came to their conclusions based on current evidence.

    It's available for anyone to read even if you don't agree with the conclusions.

    https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender/women



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    A male athlete could never retire to raise a child?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,663 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Of course, they could if they wanted (unlikely though lol), but the birth of a child isn't going to affect their performance on a physical level is it, unlike a female athlete. Serena said it herself:

    "Believe me, I never wanted to have to choose between tennis and a family. I don’t think it’s fair. If I were a guy, I wouldn’t be writing this because I’d be out there playing and winning while my wife was doing the physical labor of expanding our family."


    She is retiring so that she can become pregnant, gestate and give birth to a child, not just "raise" one.

    This is a biological constraint that Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic or any male athlete will never have to deal with and just another example of the biological advantages of being a male when it comes to competitive sports



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,580 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Then comes the gas-lighting ("women need to try harder", "it's depicting women as helpless little snowflakes").


    I don’t mind admitting I’ve said those things in the past, and it wasn’t motivated by any intent to gaslight women. Ironically it was after my opinions were being constantly misrepresented and taken out of context. It was in response to being asked directly what I’d say to a woman who lost to man; I said I’d simply say they need to try harder.

    If I were asked what I’d say to a man who just lost to a woman, I’d say they need to try harder to them too - the point being to encourage anyone not to give up! And it IS depicting women as helpless little snowflakes when the point is constantly being made that women are inferior to men and men would dominate women and all the rest of it. I think that’s a shìtty argument which is self-fulfilling, or if it can be put in terms you’ve used - THAT’s the gaslighting.

    That’s the whole letting women know they’ll never be able to compete with men and they’ll never be as good as men and all the rest of it. I just don’t buy into that crap. THAT, to me, is the ideological crap that ignores the enormous structural advantages which exist in all sports to the advantage of men, and the disadvantage of women, and women are simply regarded as being smaller men, or inferior men. Invest the same amount in women’s sports that is invested in promoting and supporting men’s sports, and then we can talk about what happens on the pitch, or on the track, or wherever else.



    I guess things like menstruation and pregnancy will cease to become an obstacle for women athletes when they were all born males.


    Their menstrual cycles ceasing is already a well-known phenomenon among women athletes, and yes, that IS a problem. Educating coaches and trainers and the athletes themselves about it, is also a problem -

    https://bmcsportsscimedrehabil.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13102-021-00372-3



    "Believe me, I never wanted to have to choose between tennis and a family. I don’t think it’s fair. If I were a guy, I wouldn’t be writing this because I’d be out there playing and winning while my wife was doing the physical labor of expanding our family."


    There’s so much is wrong with that statement, but the fact that it doesn’t occur to Ms. Williams, and I’m not sure it has occurred to you, is a bit of a head scratcher to be honest. Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it, and lesbian couples have been known to do it too, even athletes -


    At the World Athletics Championships, Fraser-Pryce is one of the most decorated athletes in history, winning ten gold and four silver medals. She is the only person to win five world titles in the 100 m—in 2009, 2013, 2015, 2019, and 2022. Her win in 2019 made her the first mother in 24 years to claim a global 100 m title, while her win in 2022 at age 35 made her the oldest sprinter ever to become world champion. In 2013, she became the first woman to sweep the 100 m, 200 m and 4 × 100 m at a single World Championship, and was voted the IAAF World Athlete of the Year. She also won the 60 m indoor title in 2014, becoming the first ever female athlete to hold world titles in all four sprint events at the same time.

    A dominant force in women's sprinting, Fraser-Pryce has won more global 100 m titles than any other sprinter in history. Nicknamed the "Pocket Rocket" for her petite stature and explosive block starts, her personal best of 10.60 seconds makes her the third fastest woman ever and the fastest mother of all time. World Athletics hailed her as "the greatest female sprinter of her generation." In 2019, she was included on the BBC's list of 100 inspiring and influential women in the world.


    And she’s none too shabby in other domains either -

    In November 2012, Fraser-Pryce graduated from the University of Technology with a Bachelor of Science in Child and Adolescent Development. In 2016, she announced that she would pursue a Master of Science in Applied Psychology at the University of the West Indies. A committed Christian, she married Jason Pryce in 2011, and announced her pregnancy in early 2017. On her Facebook page she wrote, "All my focus heading into training for my 2017 season was on getting healthy and putting myself in the best possible fitness to successfully defend my title in London 2017, but ... here I am thinking about being the greatest mother I can be." On 7 August 2017, she and her husband welcomed a son named Zyon.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelly-Ann_Fraser-Pryce


    Caster Semenya and her wife, because they didn’t give up after four unsuccessful attempts, had their first child in 2019 -

    https://www.dispatchlive.co.za/amp/lifestyle/entertainment/2022-07-06-caster-semenya-and-wife-reflect-on-4-unsuccessful-insemination-processes-before-their-baby-girl/


    And their second child just recently -

    https://www.news24.com/amp/channel/the-juice/news/caster-semenya-welcomes-second-baby-20220630


    If Ms. Williams feels she has to make a choice between tennis and motherhood, that’s entirely her own business, but suggesting that she’s only in that position because she’s a woman? That sounds, and smells like BS, to be honest. I have a suspicion it has more to do with the fact that Nike, her sponsors, don’t have a great track record themselves when it comes to how they treat mothers who are athletes, and will use every means at their disposal to make sure these women don’t complain by having them sign NDAs, meaning their real choice is between their career, and being treated like shìt -


    Felix had privately felt that fear. But in May, she joined Olympic runners Kara Goucher and Alysia Montaño in speaking out in two high-profile New York Times op-eds about the lack of maternity protection in athletes' contracts. All three runners had been sponsored by Nike at one point; all three were penalized financially during their pregnancies, despite the fact that Nike ran highly-praised ads claiming to support and elevate women at all stages of their careers—including motherhood.

    Goucher, the three-time NCAA champion, Olympic distance runner, and newly minted ultramarathoner, has been a vocal advocate for what is necessary for women to succeed in running. While she was pregnant with her son, Colt, in 2010, Goucher worked to be an active, visible figure on Nike's behalf. "Photo shoots, magazine interviews, 20-some appearances when I was pregnant," Goucher says. "I ran every single day. To be honest, that's when my popularity boomed. That's when I was the most requested track and field athlete at Nike, they told me. I was relatable." Imagine her surprise, then, when Nike stopped paying her—and didn't tell her. She found out through her financial adviser, after a missed quarterly payment.

    At the time, hers was a single-income family; she and her husband, Adam Goucher, also a prominent Olympic runner, could not afford the suspension of pay for 18 months. Nike's contracts are exclusive, which meant that she could not easily turn around and work for someone else. "I couldn't believe it," she says. "I loved Nike. They said, 'We don't pay you to tell your story. We pay you to run, and you're not running. You have to get back into racing.'" After giving birth in September, she rushed back into training, to prepare for the Boston Marathon in April. During this time, Colt developed a lump in his neck.

    "He had surgery on Wednesday; I had a race on Sunday. Looking back, it was crazy," Goucher says, her voice breaking still more than nine years later. "I had no choice. I left my son in the hospital and went to train. In this time, I'm everywhere. I'm supposed to run Boston, but I'm not getting paid. It was so stressful." She finally settled for six months without pay and an additional 12-month contract with a nondisclosure agreement. She developed hip pain that led to a stress fracture in her femur. She would go on to have hip pain for the rest of her career.


    https://www.si.com/.amp/more-sports/2019/12/13/female-athlete-mothers-speaking-out-serena-felix-montano-goucher



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,316 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I think we are.

    My point is that males have a higher bone density and upper body strength which means their punches hit harder, 2 and a half times harder. The transition process doesn't change this much so when a transwoman is fighting a biological woman she's going to hit a lot harder. That's why the injuries from the MMA transwoman fighter are so noticeable, in female combat sports women don't tend to end up with broken orbitals and needing staples in the their skull from punches.

    This difference means it's not fair nor is it safe for transwomen to compete in female combat sports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭BruteStock


    If you think its unfair for bio-men to compete against women , then you must also believe that Dutchwoman have an unfair advantage against women because they are statistically taller.

    At least thats the argument being peddled into the pubic sphere by Teni on twitter. But no two people are really the same on both classes of sports. Many hold advantages over others. The Dutchwoman defence is like saying a sprinter lost unfairly because the other competitors were faster than him. Thus the argument for bio-men is now descending into total absurdity before a global audience of millions.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Those people are not persuadable, but that's okay. They're a small minority and easy to work around.

    You're not working around the minority. You're working around those who support that minority, and what happens when governments (like Canada has done) seek to elevate the rights of that minority over the majority? Kinda hard to work around things when it's legally required.

    This issue has limited impact now, and few of us are exposed to it. It's not going to stay that way... especially since most people feel the way you do. You can work around it, so it doesn't matter. But it will later.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's a silly comparison. The muscular, and bone density advantages that come with growing up as a male, and then, transitioning (physically or otherwise), blow away any comparison with minor height differences. Those advantages remain after transitioning.. whereas a height advantage between women can be countered by better fitness or technique. Better fitness isn't going to counter the strength advantage that all men have due to their biology.

    Between two people of the same sex, generally speaking the advantages can be countered by training. It's true that some are naturally better physically for the sport they involve themselves in, but it's still a competition.

    Have you seen running competitions between women, and a transwoman? It's nuts that people can downplay the differences involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    By "work around them" I mean advocate around them, do activism around them, get involved in the many (and increasing number of) groups that are opposing this stuff.

    People don't "support the minority" when they realise that what that involves is supporting adult, intact male sex offenders being naked in changing rooms with teenage girls because of a lack of safeguarding, like the Wi Spa case, or in prisons sexually assaulting vulnerable women a la Karen White, or when they realise that it means supporting bone-destroying, blindness-causing, brain-impacting, experimental medications for healthy, gender-confused children, or mastectomies for healthy teenagers, or when they're confronted with the many (and again, increasing) stories of devastated detransitioners who consider themselves to have been mutilated and harmed by the so-called "kindness".

    Tavistock isn't closing because TRAs started having a conscience. It's closing because activists pushed and needled until the Cass review was authorised and the abuse was uncovered. Stonewall isn't falling apart organically. It's falling apart because people are working every day to bring attention to their "two year olds can decide their own gender identity" and "no debate" nonsense, and because (crowdfunded) legal cases that prove their advice to be legally unsound have happened. Sports bodies aren't suddenly having a change of heart and/or deciding they're going to be brave and face down the TRA abuse, harassment and cancellation campaigns on their own—they are being shown very clearly and repeatedly by counter-activists that the time is fast approaching when people will need to explain their prior support for policies that are harmful to women and children because awareness of exactly what they're advocating is growing—because people are organising to make sure that happens.

    My point is, there are lots of things you can do. Arguing with fanatical gender ideologues on Boards isn't one of them. Why argue with TRAs online when you can be showing moderate people information that leads them to a more educated perspective? If you care about this stuff, get active in other ways and let the TRAs argue with bots, because it has the same benefit as letting them argue with you. Which is none.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My point is, there are lots of things you can do. Arguing with fanatical gender ideologues on Boards isn't one of them

    Sure it is.. it's just not terribly productive.. however there are also all those people standing on the side-lines watching what's been going on, dipping their toes into the argument based on superficial understanding. These are the people that such discussions are for. Or simply because many of us on boards love to argue.

    The trans topic has gained so much influence because most people are confused or simply don't know what's been happening.. it's dismissed out of hand because it doesn't affect them directly. Any and all reasonable arguments put forward against the Trans topic counter that ignorance, whether it's on boards or elsewhere.

    I lecture Business Administration abroad, and part of my coursework is debating topics such as ethics, providing students the opportunity to create their own framework to understand how arguments can be made (formally or otherwise). The point being that few people are good at arguing a topic without practice, and even fewer can argue a topic without exploring the information related to it. I'd see boards as being a decent way for people to form their own frameworks, understand how to deal with all the emotional outbursts, guilt trips, passive aggressiveness, etc that tends to come from proponents of social science causes.

    By "work around them" I mean advocate around them, do activism around them, get involved in the many (and increasing number of) groups that are opposing this stuff.

    Grand.. I misunderstood your previous point.. just as you appear to have misunderstood my position. Although I would point out that Tavistock isn't any kind of end-game answer to the Trans situation. Proposed government policies, the place of Trans ideology in schools/universities, etc all point to a growth in support of this nonsense. There is a lot of support present in the US/UK for Trans related issues.. and that's going to continue because there's so much money involved.

    Going to leave this here, as we're pretty much on the same page, and I don't want to encourage the Trans advocates to re-enter the thread under general opposition, rather than the sports element of the thread itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Any and all reasonable arguments put forward against the Trans topic counter that ignorance, whether it's on boards or elsewhere.

    Okay, that's fair. I personally find other modes of countering the nonsense more productive and fulfilling, but I can see why arguing the toss in boards might be better for other.

    I would point out that Tavistock isn't any kind of end-game answer to the Trans situation. Proposed government policies, the place of Trans ideology in schools/universities, etc all point to a growth in support of this nonsense. There is a lot of support present in the US/UK for Trans related issues.. and that's going to continue because there's so much money involved.

    As someone who spends at least a little time every day on activism in this area, I'm much more optimistic than this and I think there's good reason to be. Happy to discuss in PM, but you're right about derailment so I'll leave it there so far as this thread goes.

    Peace.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Make no mistake about it, transwomen are trying to compete in women's sport because they are not good enough for the male category.

    That's all it is, nothing else. The TRAs arguments are ridiculous, but just put it to them as above and there is no answer is there?

    Follow the money.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,316 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Yeah, that's just not true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Why not? I say it is true and no one can argue against it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭greyday


    At elite level its possible, the vast majority of trans people are not at elite level so that statement is not correct.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,316 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    There's no money to be made!



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