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New Timber Frame development question.

  • 08-08-2022 1:17pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭


    Posting on behalf of a family member,


    They have purchased a house in a development off plans and it's currently in the final stages of development/ due for snagging shortly. This is they were enquiring about a floor finish and it was only then it was mentioned that the houses are timber framed rather than a conventional masonry structure. This has never been mentioned before now. Ive checked the developments website and there's no mention of this anywhere. Would it be a cause for concern? I notice it only has a 10 year structural guarantee also.



Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    10 years is the standard structural guarantee. Structural guarantees are essentially worthless anyway— your solicitor will (on closing) receive a bundle of opinions on compliance which will be predicated on certificates from carpenters, plumbers, electricians, window manufacturers etc, all of which will be turn out to be limited liability companies which will disappear like mist in the Sahara when convenient.

    Timber frame is (like any other form of construction) fine if it's done right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mike_2009


    Check house insurance - there's only two companies in Ireland that cover that construction method as it's "non-standard" in their eyes. Could be 4x / 5x normal insurance, every year!!



  • Subscribers Posts: 40,566 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    carpenters, plumbers, electricians, window manufacturers etc, all of which will be turn out to be limited liability companies which will disappear like mist in the Sahara when convenient.

    you wont get any certificate from a plumber or carpenter that indemifies liability.

    Window providers are covered by basic european product sales law, and dont provide liability certification either.

    Successive irish governments have created, continued, and reinforced our "self certification" building control system which puts the onus on compliance with building regulations upon the heads of the building owners, and not the building constructors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Absolute cobblers, any insurance company I got a quote from had timber frame in their list of options and the quote was as expected, no difference to masonry.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not sure what you mean by indemnifying liability? But anyway, that's kind of my point: the Opinion on Compliance handed over on closing relies explicitly on a pile of certificates which are effectively worthless in terms of guaranteeing that the building is properly constructed and therefore render the Opinion on Compliance effectively worthless.

    They used to be called "Certificates of Compliance" and were less than a page. Over a couple of decades the RIAI et al progressively inserted several pages of caveats & qualifiers into the document so no individual engineer/architect or firm of engineers/architects could be held liable for providing an "opinion" that a particular building was constructed in compliance with planning permission and building regulations.

    Apparently 50% to 80% of apartments built between 1995 and 2013 have issues needing remediation, plus all the pyrite & mica infested homes. I'm not aware of one single architect or engineer/other professional being held accountable (in the courts, by their own regulatory bodies, or in any other way) for who knows how many thousands of defective homes, despite the fact that virtually all of those defective homes came with an architect's or engineers opinion saying it complied with the building regulations.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mike_2009


    Thanks The Driver. Rang around in April here were the results:

    Chill - No

    Zurich - No

    Arachas - one of the few and at a premium. Builder must be member of ITFMA - Irish Timber Frame Manufacturers Association

    Axa - No

    AA - No

    15 insurers are ok if you have a block outer leaf, only 2 if you're pure timber frame. All Irish Market. 2022.

    The key is the Block outer leaf. Maybe the original poster can clarify if it has one or not? I've seen a lot of pure TF off the M50 in the south side so wonder who they are insured with but I've listed the answers I received when I rang up above. Maybe I misunderstood?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,998 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    This isnt true. What two companies are you saying only offer insurance. Its a construction method thats accepted as much as concrete. 90% of houses constructed in US are timber frame. Just for interest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Sorry, I'd assume timber frame means regular timber frame with block outer leaf. If there isn't block outer leaf, then that is fairly not standard



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭JustJoe7240


    Thanks for the replies folks, To clarify, There is a brick outer leaf.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    If It is complete timber frame ( no block outer leaf I would not touch it with a 40' pole. There is two reasons the Irish weather and building compliance in Ireland.

    There is not self certification any longer. Engineer's not certify the construction this covers structural fairly well now. The problem lies in a court case to do with an electrical cert a few years ago. New house went on fire due to an electrical fault. The certificating electrician was I am not sure but either sued or prosecuted. However he claimed he could not be responsible as there was no guarantee that someone did not interfere with the electrical wiring after he finished his work.

    This is a blank indemnity to both plumbers or electricians.

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mike_2009


    You'll be fine so! All insurance companies should accept that unless it's in a flood plain with a forest beside it and on a flightpath!!



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