Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

14-07-2022 09:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338696#Comment_119338696

Fair enough. Do you think LGBT people like me who hold that position on trans- people in sport are by default transphobic?

Podge_irl · 14-07-2022 09:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338676#Comment_119338676

Can you define bigger? A female prop being heavier or taller than an male international scrumhalf is not all that relevant.

There is absolutely no reason to expect the performance gap to decrease significantly from here (at least in sports that have taken female participation relatively seriously such as say athletics and tennis) and it would be a ludicrous endpoint of this whole thing.

Overheal · 14-07-2022 09:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338700#Comment_119338700

(I've seen trans-exclusionary LGB people)

14-07-2022 09:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338792#Comment_119338792

But that's not a direct answer to my question; it's pretty evasive and vague, actually.

Overheal · 14-07-2022 09:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338808#Comment_119338808

If it doesn't relate nevermind me.

14-07-2022 09:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338813#Comment_119338813

So why did you quote it and try (and fail) to respond. Bizarre.

Overheal · 14-07-2022 09:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338820#Comment_119338820

Seemed applicable at the time. You say it's not, so I'm not going to jump in the middle of it further.

I think it's a complicated issue. For other example, there are Black Americans who are racist toward Black Americans. Groups become cultured to even hate themselves in some extremes. So you could have a transphobic trans person, presumably. I'm not alleging you're trans exclusionary. It seems plausible trans persons could hold the views they should be segregated, and this would be colloquially known as the 'transphobic' position.

Bannasidhe · 14-07-2022 09:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338700#Comment_119338700

I think if you do not consider a person who has medically transitioned to be of the gender they identify, and that they should be banned from competing in the gender category they identify with at elite level(we are talking about sports hence the 'medically transition' qualifier) then that is a transphobic position.

It is a position based on the premise that a trans man is not a man - oh, wait - no one objects to transmen competing at elite level. Only trans women.

At non-elite level it's pretty uncontroversial to say that not recognising a person as being of the gender they identify is a transphobic position.

It's actually the official position of Boards.ie.

And what other reason would there be to ban a particular category of women apart from failure to recognise them as women?

Bannasidhe · 14-07-2022 09:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338705#Comment_119338705

Because scrum halfs never get tackled by props?

14-07-2022 10:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338859#Comment_119338859

It is a position based on the premise that a trans man is not a man...

It's not a premise. It's just fact; a biological fact.

Trans men are not biological males and trans women are not biological females. If trans men were men, they wouldn't have the prefix "trans-" to begin with.

And deep down. And I mean really deep down, you know this.

You can call LGBT people like me "transphobic" for saying this, but you're whistling against reality. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, nor how many times you silence people who disagree with you, what you are stating cannot - CANNOT - be true. Not in this universe, not in any universe.

No amount of labelling and dismissing "the Other" can eliminate that fact, however painful it may be to accept.

AllForIt · 14-07-2022 10:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335841#Comment_119335841

I think Professor Winston is an expert.

Do you have qualifications that match professor Winston's? Your post count here doesn't count.

https://twitter.com/PiersUncensored/status/1546948754883887106

Podge_irl · 14-07-2022 10:19PM

I think if you do not consider a person who has medically transitioned to be of the gender they identify, and that they should be banned from competing in the gender category they identify with at elite level(we are talking about sports hence the 'medically transition' qualifier) then that is a transphobic position.

There are plenty of people who would consider your "medically transitioned" qualifier to be itself transphobic.

It is a position based on the premise that a trans man is not a man - oh, wait - no one objects to transmen competing at elite level. Only trans women.

Some do, I don't. Because my issue is not with the existence or ability of trans people in general to play sports at an elite level. This seems to run somewhat counter to the idea that it is inherent transphobia no?

Because scrum halfs never get tackled by props?

Sure (though rarely, the wee scamps) but there have always been women taller and heavier than e.g. Peter Stringer. Less so ones with the same muscle mass and bone density for that size. Its not the greatest example due to the pro vs amateur dynamic also, but we both know that not a single female international would be able to play at male international level so claiming "some are bigger" is a bit disingenuous.

Bannasidhe · 14-07-2022 10:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338901#Comment_119338901

And round and round we go.

The deliberate mixing and matching of biological sex and gender when it's being made perfectly clear that they are not the same thing.

Since your seem to have re-set you talking points back to index card #1 I'll disengage from discussing this further with you.

I have answered your questions honestly and to the best of my abilities.

My position is clear. A trans woman is a woman, a trans man is a man.

My identity as a woman is not threatened by either of these statements.

14-07-2022 10:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339070#Comment_119339070

A trans woman is a woman, a trans man is a man.

No, they aren't.

And you know it.

Bannasidhe · 14-07-2022 10:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339004#Comment_119339004

Indeed. Which is why I specified within the context of elite sports - as medically transitioned is required. That is why the Transgender man mentioned in the OP was competing against women, including a trans woman. Those are not my rules. They are, however, the rules elite trans athletes are currently expected to observe.

I placed no qualifies on non-elite athletes participating at the gender they identify.

Interesting you can predict the future of women's (incl trans) abilities with such accuracy. You must make a killing at the bookies.

I would never place a limit on what women athletes will be able to do in the future following decades of the kind of investment put into male athletes we could all be very surprise. Wasn't that long ago it was believed no woman could run a marathon.

Bannasidhe · 14-07-2022 10:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339001#Comment_119339001

And expert in fertility.

Not in pediatric endocrinology.

Even with your post count you should be able to understand the different between the two.

14-07-2022 10:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339119#Comment_119339119

As long as sport is differentiated by biological sex, the views of subjective gender will always, always take second place.

As Sebastian Coe has said, "I've always made it clear: if we ever get pushed into a corner to that point where we're making a judgement about fairness or inclusion, I will always fall down on the side of fairness".

I hate Coe, but he's right.

CatFromHue · 14-07-2022 11:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338859#Comment_119338859

Your post is a good example of a self fulfilling argument.

Unfortunately when it comes to sports the transition process doesn't equalise performance.

Abstract

Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and their experienced gender identity. Accordingly, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) determined criteria by which a transgender woman may be eligible to compete in the female category, requiring total serum testosterone levels to be suppressed below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to and during competition. Whether this regulation removes the male performance advantage has not been scrutinized. Here, we review how differences in biological characteristics between biological males and females affect sporting performance and assess whether evidence exists to support the assumption that testosterone suppression in transgender women removes the male performance advantage and thus delivers fair and safe competition. We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10–50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage | SpringerLink

You bring up Transmen which is a good point. Where are the transmen who are competing at high level?

Live your life and identify how you wish, I'm all for it. When it comes to competing in sport though there are other things that come into play.

AllForIt · 15-07-2022 12:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339070#Comment_119339070

My identity as a woman is not threatened by either of these statements.

You identity as a gender non-conforming butch dyke lesbian.

What is your personal tribalism? Is it with normal woman? You know the one's who wear make-up, short skirts, busty blonds, sexy page 3 models, red lipsticks, pouty lips. Surely you don't identify with all that.

Do you have a problem with normal women and as a result don't identify with their concern's in terms of transgender issues. Because that's what it looks like to me.

Annasopra · 15-07-2022 08:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339441#Comment_119339441

normal woman? You know the one's who wear make-up, short skirts, busty blonds, sexy page 3 models, red lipsticks, pouty lips.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Bannasidhe · 15-07-2022 11:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339837#Comment_119339837

'Normal'

Not 'Normal'

Well, there you have it. Defination of woman in 2 easy lessons.

15-07-2022 11:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339284#Comment_119339284

Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment.

Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.

That's remarkable, as I didn't believe the % would be as low as that. And that's without even considering the structural advantages that come with male bodies that have advanced through puberty.

No wonder sporting bodies are channelling their efforts toward "open categories".

How anyone can justify the inclusion of trans women in women's competitions, in full light of this evidence, is beyond me.

At that stage, it's no longer about science and fairness and equality; it's about ideology and the naked pursuit of dogma.

Annasopra · 15-07-2022 11:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340508#Comment_119340508

One of the most bizarre descriptions I've ever read on this site. A "normal woman" basically being reduced to a hypersexualised stereotype. I know loads of normal women. None of them are like this bizarre caricature. It's also of course telling that it paints anyone outside of that bizarre caricature in as "abnormal".