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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I thought performance enhancing drugs were banned in sport ?



  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's why I don't understand your position.

    Not all trans- people undertake surgery. Only a minority fraction do, in fact. So if someone felt they were born into the wrong body but identifies as a member of the opposite sex, why would you demand of them to take surgery/hormones? After all, they claim they were born into the wrong body and so they believe they are a woman even with no surgery (vice versa with men / transmen). Why shouldn't they be allowed to compete in competitions without surgery if they so choose?

    And second, where do agendered athletes compete? Where do neutrois non-binary athletes compete? They identify neither as males or females, but as athletes, where should they compete? About 40% of transgender people identify as non-binary, so this isn't a peripheral issue. It's approaching half the trans population.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭BruteStock


    Puberty blockers have been around for 40 years but to treat a completely different condition than transgenderism. So there are no consultants out there with vast experience of specifically prescribing children with blockers for the purpose of sex change.

    It can and in many cases has gone wrong for transitioners. So not only is doctors experience relatively new , but its also proven to not be full-proof. Which it absolutely should be as medically and surgically altering children has the potential to ruin their lives.

    Any consultant actively aiding a young child to transition should be stopped until they reach a certain age , 17 at the youngest. Assisting a child as young as 12 to transition will eventually become illegal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Despite the claims that people like me do not understand biology, or accept that there are physical differences between a human body with 'male' amounts of testosterone and 'female' amounts of testosterone - that is not the case.

    I acknowledge the effects of hormones on the human body. I also acknowledge the effects of oestrogen.

    I appreciate the advantage biological males have in strength.

    I appreciate the advantage biological females have with a lower centre of gravity.

    In certain contexts.

    When it comes to elite sports, where the smallest margin makes a difference, I believe it is perfectly reasonable for an elite athlete who wishes to compete AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL in a gender category that is not aligned to their biological sex some form of levelling the playing field be required.

    I would not expect a trans man who is not taking testosterone to compete against cis men in Olympic wrestling (for example). That would be unfair as the cis men would have an advantage. However, if the trans man has medically transitioned he absolutely should be competing against men.

    In non-elite levels of sport I do not think medical transitioning should be required. I think a person should be allowed to compete as the gender they identify with - or both if they feel like it.


    I played rugby to elite level. Although I am sure I never played against a transwoman at the highest level due to World Rugby's rules, I neither know nor care if I played with or against transwomen at provincial or club level (and I could have...). All I cared about was using my abilities and advantages to play better than my opponent. Their genitalia/chromosomes were immaterial.

    That is my position.



  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fair enough. You admit that physical advantages exist and these should be adjusted for.

    But how does that account answer to the non-binary identities that I mentioned in the same post? I'm unaware how that could possibly be accounted for, actually. If an elite-level athlete is non-binary, what do they do? Where do they compete?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    And yet many sporting bodies have no bar on Trans women who transitioned before puberty competing as women at the highest level. Their science mustn't agree with your science.

    Those puberty blockers that have been proscribed for pre-pubescent people who believe they may be transgender since the 1990s. Which is around 30 years ago. Don't know about you but that seems a reasonable amount of time for specialists to gain experience to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭Labaik


    I would have to question any medical expert that prescribes puberty blockers for children in this instance.

    Have you ever heard of Doctor John Money, he was a psychologist specialising in sex changes. He was a sick man who caused untold hurt and tragedy with his work, so dont always trust medical experts when we don't really know what the long term effects, especially psychologically, from these methods.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not an expert on intersex issues, so I'm not going to pretend to be. Logic would suggest that each athlete is treated on a case-by-case basis, as most intersex comfortably identify with the sex they were expected to identify with given their own specific circumstances (even what's defined as "intersex" is subject to debate among medical professionals). It would also depend on whether that person had gone through puberty etc.

    Transgender athletes are a different question altogether because we already know what their biological sex is (which matters even if they are non-binary).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭SnazzyPig


    The hyperbole is very much one sided.

    'Trans Genocide' indeed.



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  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think it's notable that as soon as I raised the question of how to integrate non-binary transgender people into sport, a deafening silence ensued.

    Remember, these are people who neither identify as male or female, so an answer to this question is very important. 40pc of transgender people are non-binary, yet we never hear about their rights to enter sporting competitions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Meanwhile Anon poster with a few hundred posts on an Irish site is the go to expert.

    Sure thing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    See, here we go.

    I have been more than polite with you.

    I have answered honestly and respectfully every question you put to me and then this passive aggressive B.S get's trotted out.

    You posed a question to me at 9:31 pm last night, my last post here last night was 9:34 pm.

    At 10:41 am you claim there is "a deafening silence". Well excuse me for not being at your beck and call to answer questions on topics you yourself admit you are no expert on - but expect me to be. How very dare I prioritise my 87 year old Mother's care over your incessant interrogations. Bit rich given another poster had to specifically tag you to get a response.

    I did partially answer your question but apparently you didn't bother to read that before launching your latest attempt at a 'gotcha'.

    In non-elite levels of sport I do not think medical transitioning should be required. I think a person should be allowed to compete as the gender they identify with - or both if they feel like it.

    Currently levels of particular hormones are already being used to bar intersex people who were assigned female as birth and identify as women so obviously that is a problematic issue. As is the fact that intersex people who present as male are never tested - or indeed any athlete who was assigned as male at birth. I do not know the answers - but I do know if people who present as women are tested then the same should happen to those who present as men. Or to no one at all.

    Men born with genetic advantages are given a free pass to be 'the greatest'. Women are punished. That is manifestly unfair when so many people claim to be very concerned about fairness in sport.

    The question of intersex people is a different issue to that of transgender people - Sporting bodies set hormone level requirements knowing such hormones have to be artificially acquired. With intersex women they insist hormone levels be artificially reduced to conform to a particular set of criteria as to what constitutes a woman. Perhaps they should just ask the experts in this thread.



  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Intersex has nothing to do with transgender people in sport. Chalk and cheese.

    But what you said still doesn't address the question of how to integrate non-binary transgender people, who neither identify as male or female, into elite sports?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Do you read what I write at all?

    I said:

    I do not know the answers 

    Personally, I have no issue if they participate where they want. It would be worth it just to hear the roars from people who are suddenly passionate about 'fairness' women's sports. Let's be honest, no one will complain about any-one non-binary participating in Men's sports. Be they transgender or not.



  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would absolutely oppose it, on the basis that - depending on the competition - the non-binary or transgender person is taking a place of a person who has trained to get into that position for years.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,813 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    As is the fact that intersex people who present as male are never tested - or indeed any athlete who was assigned as male at birth. I do not know the answers - but I do know if people who present as women are tested then the same should happen to those who present as men. Or to no one at all.

    There is a rather obvious reason for this though. If you want to equalise it across the board then fine, it seems like it would be something of a token gesture but I guess there is no reason to be opposed to it. Unless there is some study that suggests being "male" intersex is somehow advantageous then there is a reason they are treated differently. Ultimately though, I think intersex women are an incredibly difficult case to treat fairly across the board.

    Requiring medical transitioning seems at least more reasonable, though all evidence we have suggests it is not enough to remove the inherent advantage that you acknowledge exists. Its also unlikely to be a sustainable position I think as it will inevitably bring up the same claims of "forced medicalisation" that is levelled (fairly) at intersex hormone requirements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Every single elite athlete athlete has an advantage over other athletes.

    The best of the best advantages plus the training, skills, mental fortitude, discipline, coaching staff etc etc to exploit those advantages.

    At what point do we decide one advantage is more advantageous than another? Basketball player who is just too tall for it to be fair? Suleiman Ali Nashnush was 2.45 m tall. Was he banned due to his 'advantage'? Was Jonah Lomu fair? Micheal Phelps - who naturally produces half the normal amount of lactic acid for an athlete meaning he simply doesn't get tired as quickly. He won 28 Olympic medals thanks, in part, to that 'advantage'. Was that fair? Why is the concern about 'fairness' and biological advantages only applied to women's sports?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Because, of course, the non-binary person just rocks up, and runs fast/jump high/swims quickly with zero training at all at all. Ever.

    Don't be absurd.



  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You said that you have no answer re: non-binary transgender people in sport. My answer is simple: that they should participate in the event that aligns with their biological sex and not what subjective identity they happen to believe in.

    I actually don't get involved in the whole "advantage of trans women"-argument. I think it's a total distraction actually, even if such advantages exist. My problem is much more fundamental than that. For example: if you have a 100-meters race and only 10 people are allowed to compete, if a trans person (biological male) takes one of those positions, it means that a biological woman has lost that place. And that's not fair. In fact, it's worse than unfair; it's an injustice.

    Trans rights are human rights. But women's rights are not trans rights.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,813 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    Ultimately the male-female advantage massively overrides every single other one. That is why there is male and female groupings in the Olympics and not short and tall groupings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Or in a society traditionally segregated along gender lines we have decided male/female is the important one.

    Was a time we also believed race was a pretty big line. Thankfully we have mostly gotten over that.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,813 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    There is a 12-20% difference in performance in most sports - higher in others. Its gigantic.

    I don't doubt there are societal and historical reasons behind it, but the evidence now is overwhelming that it utterly swamps any other distinction. It is not much different in that sense from weight limits in combat sports.

    Medically transitioned people being allowed compete seems like a reasonable compromise but a) they definitely still retain an advantage (you could argue it doesn't matter at that point if you so wanted) and b) I have great difficulty believing it will remain as a rule.

    Post edited by Podge_irl on


  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Or in a society traditionally segregated along gender lines we have decided male/female is the important one.

    You do accept the irony that transgenderism is premised upon that very distinction?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This is why I think given time that segregation will vanish too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Have you forgotten we are talking about elite sports in this thread?

    You were quick enough to remind me last night (ironic given I am the OP so know exactly what this thread was started to discuss).

    Chosen to ignore the quote you have taken out of context (not quoting my whole post is a bit of a give away there) was specifically in relation to sport did you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Possibly.

    As more investment is being put into women's sports we could see the performance gap begin to narrow vis a vis men's.

    We are already seeing women rugby players at the top level who are considerably bigger than some male internationals.



  • Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on my position that trans- women should not partake in women's competitions on the basis that a biological male has supplanted a place in the competition that otherwise would have went to a biological woman.

    The above is absolutely in relation to elite sports.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    My thoughts are that is your position.

    I disagree with your position.



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