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Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,827 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    this is getting a bit hypothetical, but if cyclists are treating "Stops" as "Yields" then they should still stop if you're approaching the junction and have right of way. I'd be in favour of selectively allowing it in ROTR, it's done in other countries and carnage has not ensued. Traffic lights, roundabouts, one-ways etc do nothing for cyclists and are there exclusively to solve problems caused by cars.

    In general I expect everyone to drive, cycle and walk like an idiot - in particular in areas with a lot of pedestrians I slow right down as people tend to step out onto the road with no warning. I'd rather not hit someone, even if they're technically in the wrong (I also support widespread 30km/h limits for this reason).



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Interesting, maybe start a campaign then to get the Rules of the Road changed and bring more clarity to what is a grey area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 Howok


    Done



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,871 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Post edited by magicbastarder on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    just editing out the reference to the above post - mb

    Completely uncalled for, should be ashamed of yourself.

    Post edited by magicbastarder on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    One person has been banned and off topic posts deleted. Anyone else attempting to continue sniping will be sanctioned.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,827 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    had a quick look at the taney rd plans

    • the cycling elements aren't bad; good to see the use of 2-way cycle lanes.
    • could be tricky to turn right from the cycle lane at some junctions
    • There's a section of shared space, but it's short and I don't know how busy the footpath is there.
    • I don't see why all those "uncontrolled crossings" couldn't be zebra crossings; we should be putting zebra crossings everywhere if we're serious about prioritising pedestrians and they have effect of slowing traffic down as a bonus.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This popped up on my twitter feed from one of the principal authors of the DMURS slapping himself on the back over how great it is. It's generated a mixed reaction but Cian seems to like it, what are others' thoughts?


    I cycled this road for the first time in years a week back and laughed to myself when i encountered the electricity pole in the fourth pic (you might need to zoom in but when you see it...).


    I'm not a fan at all. Both junctions make themselves look like free for alls, which to me just means cars will assume they have right of way over pedestrians and cyclists. A lot of the curves on the road are very short, sharp and slow when navigating bus shelters, poles etc.


    I use Cypress Grove Road in Templeogue daily, which has lots of these slightly staggered junctions where the cycle lane gives way to cars entering/existing the side road, and that constantly has the cycle lanes in junctions blocked by queueing cars - so I cycle on the road instead.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'll have to disagree with you, this is good design. Its not perfect though, there are issues, but I think its good for the following reasons

    • The junctions are sharp as you mention, in order to slow down turning traffic i.e. it nearly has to come to a stop to turn
    • The raised junctions keep pedestrian/cyclists at the same level and instead the car is "entering" the ped/cyc area.
    • The surface change reinforces this by being deliberately closer in colour and material to the ped/cyc infrastructure than the road i.e. the car is crossing a footpath, not the ped/cyc crossing a road (if that makes sense, its a psychological thing I've seen explained somewhere)
    • The change in surface level behind the bus stop is a good accessibility improvement

    Unless I'm missing something, the bike lane doesn't appear to be protected on where it joins the road, am I right or is it on a raised surface or with a kerb perhaps, hard to see for sure.

    Now, to your point about blockages, ideally there should be space just ahead of the bike lane for a single car length, then the bike lane should be clear, then the next car. It doesn't look like there is even room for a single car ahead of the bike lane, as in one car waiting at the junction would still be infringing on the bike lane, thats not ideal at all if thats the case



  • Registered Users Posts: 12 Hunt_Morris


    It sounds interesting, maybe start a campaign then to get the Rules of the Road changed and bring more clarity to what is a grey area.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I didn't mention the junctions being sharp, I said where the cycle lane curves around obstacles is sharp (look at before the bus shelter in pic 1, and the pole in the distance in pic 4)!


    I only see it as a very slight improvement on this ~20 year old design

    Upside is, cyclists get priority (finally)!

    Except the priority isn't obvious due to a lack of road markings and signposts, which makes conflict even likelier imho.

    Also no, in none of the junctions is there enough space for a single car to sit ahead of the cycle lane. Even on a weekday-evening cycle last week I had to stop once on the cycle lane eastbound due to a car blocking me.


    It is very aesthetically pleasing though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    I don’t think we have a commonly used road marking to indicate priority like they do in the Netherlands, but the junction style is pretty much the best you can get and common place across Europe




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don't we sometimes use triangles (wrongly, internationally they're meant to be inverted to match direction of lane travel but we don't bother) to indicate priority at those sorts of raised crossings? e.g.

    I know i've come across somewhere recently that had full on stop lines + STOP written on the road leading to the raised cycle path too, but I'm struggling to remember exactly where.


    All my accidents and most of my near misses have been at junctions with minor roads, usually with someone turning into one while I have right of way - so a junction that has no signage, no road markings, and relies on a tan pavement to indicate that cyclists have right of way gives me the heebies jeebies tbh



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My apologies, I misunderstood where you said "A lot of the curves on the road are very short, sharp and slow when navigating bus shelters, poles etc." to mean the curves on the road.

    I was looking at the 4th pic and couldn't see what was the issue with the pole beside the wall, but on second look now, I see the pole you meant, way down the bike lane, yeah thats just stupid.

    Overall its definitely a step in the right direction, with learning pains I guess



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    The issue with the triangles are they’re just generic traffic calming signals according to Irish laws, so they’re used on speed bumps as well, they don’t indicate any sort of priority to other road users, other than cars need to slow down



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What makes it better than the 20 year old design I posted above? Positives: ostensible priority against traffic turning on to side road. Negatives: no red coloured tarmac (which I believe is considered best practice in most places including Ireland), no road markings of any kind, no signposts.

    I would have thought 20+ years and being able to look at the countries around Europe and see how they're treating this sort of incredibly common junction would be enough to do it better, but that could be naïveté on my part!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Improvements I can see.

    The main road isn't curved into the junction so it slows cars down.

    The colouration does make a difference as mentioned above, its based on either a model by the Dutch or the Danish, that tells you as a driver it is no longer your road but you are entering someone elses space, so more caution is taken.

    Signs and red tarmac have done nothing for cycling in Ireland and it is not best practice, just something we seem to like doing in some counties. Experience tells me that motorists know a cycle lane whether it is red or black. The shift to be closer to the pedestrian path is an improvement here IMO.

    Maybe people will disagree with me but in the same way turns should be 90 degrees for motorists to discourage speeding through, the same for cyclists at bus stops.

    As cycling infrastructure goes it isn't perfect, as far as it goes in Ireland, it is close to the best I have seen based on your photos.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Actually, the main road is curved into the junction, it's just disguised by the choice of surface material. You can even see the curve in the picture by looking at the stains left by vehicle tyres as they drive in and out. From the plan:



    Both dutch and danish designs use bright colouring at junctions to indicate priority of cycle lanes: blue in danish, red in dutch. Using a neutral colour+different material for the rest of the junction is only part of the design, the other part is a) road markings & b) brightly coloured cycle lane. My experience with dutch and danish junctions is that both use a mixture of signs & road markings, the former indicating that it's a cycle track (i.e. blue circular bicycle sign) and the latter giving clear visual indication as to who has priority.

    NSW design manual:

    NACTO:

    Ontario design manual:

    Scotland:

    & England&Wales (note the much sharper turn in than on the kilmacud road entrance)


    So the summary is: it's apparently the best we have, but it's no better than something 20+ years old (and arguably worse in several ways) and doesn't seem to follow any modern design guidelines from elsewhere in the world.

    Annoyingly, it wouldn't have cost much more to design the junction to a better standard, it just seems like no-one really cared about doing it right. One only need to look at Temple Hill or Newtown Avenue to see a few examples of a better treatment of cycle lane/junction infrastructure in DLRCC but in the absence of an updated national cycle manual (which was meant to have been ready by 2021, but seems to have been lost in the abyss).


    Considering it likely costs the same, and considering that there is no shortage of guidance on doing it right, why do we happily accept long-term infrastructure that does it badly?


    (also, when looking at the Copenhagen design manual, it suggested curves in cycle tracks should allow a design speed of 30km/h - the curve leading into and out of that junction is to facilitate the planting of some new trees - trees that will also reduce the visibility at the junction....)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Does this mean we'll know tomorrow if it's going ahead or not? This could have a significant positive impact on the DART+ project.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    No, it'll likely take a few months for a written judgement. This is just the hearing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    In theory sounds like there could be a positive in that the council will have the ability to collect data and have hard facts to backup why it should continue, but we all know unless the council decide to scrap the idea at the end of the trial it’ll be no use, since they’ll just object regardless and drag it out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Ranelagh to get segregated lanes in the future, according to https://www.dublininquirer.com/2022/07/13/council-plans-segregated-cycle-lanes-through-ranelagh

    I haven't been through in a while, but it was always a pain with illegal parking and loading and cycle tracks that were only operational during rush hour.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    >Thirteen of the 21 bus stops along the route would be made into island bus stops, meaning the cycle lane will run behind the bus stop.


    This jumped out, hopefully they design them better than some of the island bus stops that are more like a chicane with very little sight behind/beyond!


    It'll be tough designing the junctions, would love to see detailed plans. It's a narrow enough road and pretty unpleasant to cycle through currently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭bazermc


    I think this has already been done so this is old news. There is segregated bike lanes with those bendy poles all the way from the Bridge up to past the village.

    Its only been a few months since they were put in place and some of them are looking worse for wear already, especially the yellow arrow signed. Also delivery trucks up near Supervalue keep parking on top on them so those ones are out of shape and bent over.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭bazermc


    What’s the point in having bike lane bollards if they can just be parked on top of.



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