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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Archive.ph for the win. Not sure how they can keep doing this, but it's the Internet.





  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Mr Clever




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Online comments suggest that this Daily Mail front page is a fake.

    That said, other online comments at the weekend, with a link to an article (new European IIRC), also suggested that Mail shareholder Rothermere instructed the paper to now turn on Johnson, because too out of touch with public opinion.

    Edit: found it-




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭schmoo2k




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Fake. Fake. Fake.

    Date is December 2017 in the image - so, even if it is the true headline, it is not recent. If it was real, it would include May. So fake.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Satire and real life have become almost indistinguishable.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,246 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    And some of the details are coming out and, surprise, surprise, it's a big pie of unicorn farts again...

    The Labour leader will also use a speech on Monday to say a government under his leadership would not join a customs union with the EU, in maintaining the hard Brexit brokered by Boris Johnson.Instead the opposition leader will pledge to make the existing “poor deal” work by first fixing the Northern Ireland Protocol, which the prime minister is threatening to override.

    In a behind-closed-doors speech for the Centre for European Reform think tank, Sir Keir will pledge to “eliminate most border checks” under the current protocol deal.

    He wants a new veterinary agreement for agricultural products moving between the UK and EU, and an enhanced trusted trader scheme to allow low-risk goods entering Northern Ireland without unnecessary checks.

    Having promised to seek a new veterinary agreement in a bid to resolve the protocol row, Labour would also try to extend a veterinary agreement to cover all of the UK – claiming it would “tear down barriers” for exporters.

    Sir Keir will say that “revisiting“ old Brexit rows will not “help stimulate growth or bring down food prices or help British business thrive in the modern world”.

    So we're not to look back but hey let's do all this stuff already proposed that EU already said "no way" to two previous PMs because Starmer will make it work... I don't like Boris, I had hopes for Starmer but seriously how bloody stupid is the requirement to become a party leader in the UK?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'd say this is a pretext for single market and customs union membership. He'll say that the deal is unfit for purpose and blame it on Johnson. He wouldn't be wrong on either count. He can't win without southern England and southern England voted to end free movement and for the Tories. They won't change their minds just like that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,011 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    He can do pretty much all those things if the UK stick to EU standards.

    It'll be the single market without saying single market.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,246 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    And renegotiate the free trade agreement(s) that allow lower standards and assume EU has any such interest as the next Tory government is likely to lower the standards again etc. Lest we forget:

    What we're talking about here would generously be Turkey step and you know the Tories could never accept that and will hammer them on the trade deals etc. That does not stop the queues at the border either etc.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The thing is, we have hard Brexit now. If Starmer can negotiate a softer version with the EU and then run on an election saying that the Tories want to go back to bitching about the protocol and customs controls, he could do well. This could also be a stepping stone back to EU membership in the long term.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭yagan


    I agree with your earlier musing about Starmer's remarks, especially all the talks of vet checks being actually constructive towards a new normal, but back towards the EU it is not. NZ upholds EU standards for it's meat products but Britain hasn't produced a food surplus since before the industrial revolution and simply don't value the notion of food stability. (the largest non war loss of civilian life in UK was after all from mass starvations when laissez faire was let rule in Ireland).

    I don't envisage mass starvations, but if standards continue to be eroded and labour shortages continue I can see serious mass malnourishment issues, especially amongst the elderly the poorest.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't see starvation issues at all. I just see the poorest people in vulnerable sectors getting sacrificed at the alter of Brexit. Food can always be imported and waved through customs. If several farmers go bankrupt then they must be seditious remainers looking to undermine Brexit.

    Starmer is doing what any sensible Labour leader must do, trying and play both sides while pleasing nobody. Labour ran on a second referendum platform in 2019 and attained the worst result since 1935. Starmer and his team will be only too aware of this.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,265 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    That's probably already happening. The UK has more food banks than McDonalds now (not saying McDonalds food is better than what you'd get at a food bank, but the fact that there is a need for so many food banks shows how much of the population are struggling to feed themselves)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭yagan


    You're not countering in that while Britain could import cheaper food the ability to do so relies on their currencies purchasing power. GBP has been marked as being as volatile as an emerging countries currency, but further political instability will erode purchasing power down another rung.

    The biggest problem I think is that while they know wages have seen to lowest growth in the OECD over the last decade many still believe that brexit is a fix and not an a further accelerant to their decline.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭yagan


    Weren't UNICEF in some London suburb last year?

    Plus malnutrition will only aid the reemergence of diseases not seen in decades. I was chilled when I saw polio being cited last week.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I just don't see it. We've had nearly three years of this now and the country hasn't imploded. It's suffered but it is what it is. Nobody thinks Brexit is a fix as far as I can tell. Even Johnson stopped pretending in 2019. It's only relevant now because it worked for them in 2019.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭yagan


    Perhaps the phrase you're looking for is "it couldn't happen here".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    What point are you trying to make with this statement?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭yagan


    Did the UK implode when millions were starving in Ireland?

    I don't think the UK will implode if millions are malnourished now. But quality of life and expectations will diminish, especially after another currency devaluation.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    You're being a bit ridiculous now in fairness. Ireland 1845-1852 is not the same as the UK in 2022.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,369 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    What Starmer is proposing sounds very much like being in the SM just without a label to avoid upsetting the brexit hysterics



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,546 ✭✭✭rock22


    And of course Starmer must think that the EU will of course bend over backwards to make a new agreement with a country that refuses to abide with the current one!

    I see little difference in Starmer's position and Trusses'Johnson's to be honest



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Starmer just continues to dance on the head of an electoral pin, is all.

    Meanwhile, UK plc continues to burn down to the ground, and everybody and their pet red tops continue to look the other way.

    Fat lot of good getting elected would do to Starmer, when the UK, in hock to its hair root and without much of an economy left to heart-massage back up, is back to getting the begging bowl out to the IMF.

    This is the Brexit thread, not the UK politics one, but I can’t see UK politics reaching escape velocity from Brexit for a (yet another-) decade at this rate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭54and56


    I don't think that's at all fair. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his politics Starmer is at least honourable and trustworthy, he is a QC and former DPP. If he signs up to a binding deal he'll honour it. The Tories on the other hand have, since the ERG take-over of the party, gone from being the party of law and order run by (mostly) honourable people to the crass rabble who are currently destroying the country both domestically and internationally in the pursuit of a self-serving narrow isolationist agenda which doesn't value international relationships or honour international agreements.

    Starmer and BloJo / Truss etc couldn't be further apart when it comes to trust and abiding by agreements entered into.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭ambro25


    But that’s the personality aspect.

    So Starmer is a nice upstanding citizen. It would be a welcome change from the current Muppet Show, sure. A good thing (no sark).

    But in terms of policies, rock22 isn’t wrong. Starmer is aligned on the Tories about no SM/CU, no IndyRef2, immigration, etc…

    To the lambda voter, assuming no red/blue tribalism factor, Labour and the Tories are much of a muchness in terms of “what will they do for me”.

    Where Brexit is concerned, Starmer’s messaging is welcome -inasmuch as it may get people to dare utter the ‘B’ word again- but in terms of policy, it does nothing to curb the rate at which Brexit is killing off British industry, agri-food and services - of which there would be precious left (never mind ‘still in British controlling hands’) by the time he’s managed to turn the public opinion supertanker.

    The stats have long been there, and have recently been officialised by the ONS. Rome is burning fast.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Agreed. It'll be nice to hopefully have a prime minister with a known amount of children if nothing else. The Tories are openly spreading misinformation on a scale shocking even by their low standards. Labour aren't.

    Starmer is only aligned on them because he feels he has to be. His party is pro-Remain and pro-EU. There's no way he maintains his current position if he becomes PM. Less so if he has to do a deal with the Lib Dems.

    If Rome is burning, at least its obvious that Johnson is more concerned with procreating and sheltering morally disgusting people while it does. Best thing for Labour and Liberals is to just wait it out and knock his party off their seats in the inevitable by-elections.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    I think Starmer's speech is the first step. He cannot simply come out and say he will work towards SM/CU. HE, and Labour, would simply be torn apart by the Brexit media and the Tories would gladly take the opportunity to ignore the latest Johnson scandal to start screaming about only Johnson can save Brexit.

    But what it does is start the conversation. Starmer has remained completely silent on Brexit, and its effects, since he became leader. This is the first time he has broached the subject that Brexit isn't working.

    It seems the smart way to approach it. The public is not ready to admit the mistake they made, but increasingly they seem to accept that this version, the Tory version, of Brexit isn't working. So, Labour could potentially do well by making it sound like they have the answer to making Brexit work. We all know it's nonsense, but the UK public has shown themselves, in terms of Brexit at least, to be happy to be lied to once it makes them feel like they are right.

    And it could well be the start of the process of changing. We all know that a return to normality, whether that be actually in the EU or just closer alignment, will take many years. There simply isn't going to be a point where people wake up and admit it was all a ghastly mistake and time to cancel it.

    But Starmer has started the conversation that there might be a different way. I hope that at the very least, the Labour party now start to actually hold the Tories to account for the outcomes of their decisions. Really put them to the fire for the selling of the deal and then reneging on it. Why is the pound so low yet exports haven't shot up? Why are there queues at the border? What are they doing about musicians and scientists? etc etc



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,011 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    What new agreement ?

    Most of what he is saying is about keeping the UK in line with the current rules. Also the EU are grown ups who understand that Starmers government could not be judged on the actions of Johnsons.



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