Russia - threadbanned users in OP

You sound like a very important guy.

NATO only exists to fight Russia?

So why did NATO go into Afghanistan after 911?

NATO is a defensive pact. NATO's purpose is not to expand but to defend. States apply to join... mysteriously.

Russia expands and threatens to expand into Ukraine, Poland, Moldova etc.

Even Putin isn't using NATO as the reason for the the invasion now so you've fallen behind on the official Kremlin line. It's understandable though as it has changed multiple times at this stage.

lol, this guy!

A reminder of the evidence for the Bucha massacre, denied by some of the Russian propagandists on this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

Russian rhetoric has escalated from getting a special military operation into a limited area of Ukraine to protect ethnic Russians, all the way to talking about de-ukrainifying Ukraine and questioning whether the country will even exist in a couple of years time. Russia's objectives are clear enough to anyone willing to see, and it won't be until it becomes clear to them that these objectives cannot be met that they will be willing to sit down and discuss any kind of reasonable compromise. It leaves a stark choice for Ukraine to either surrender and pray mercy from their Russian overlords or else fight Russia to a standstill - to a point where the war is economically and politically unsustainable for Putin. For the Russians, it's "We want the Donbass - then the southern coast to Transnistria - then Kyiv and Zelenskyy"

Every troll on this board will cry up and down about how Russia was pushed to this by NATO encroachment, while claiming that it must be at the West's insistence that Ukraine is fighting. What an uneven expression of sympathies from these supposedly neutral people. These 'realists'. Well, guess what - there's a reason pretty much every country bordering Russia is in NATO, or has expressed an interest in joining. It's because they are fearful of what would happen if they weren't in the bloc, and those fears are certainly being borne out. Russia caused NATO encroachment by being a poorly run country that only knows how to express power in its hard form. It's done a bang up job of making its neighbours suspicious and fearful of it.

No-one here is really cheerleading Ukraine to fight. It's just weasel words to say that. We do, however, respect their choice to fight, knowing what the alternative is.

Unlike most of the doom scrolling arm chair generals on this thread, I have actual relatives in Ukraine and am deeply familiar with the situation there, having watched it unfold over the past 15 years or so. Unfortunately most of my relatives and friends there are the 'wrong' type of Ukrainian, being partially or fully of Russian ancestry, and I have watched/listened as the Ukrainian far right grew in power and influence to the point where, after the 2014 coup, far right talking heads were actively calling for genocide against Russians on Ukrainian news channels. Imagine that, people calling for the deaths of 1.5 million people in the Donbas because they are deemed unnecessary. I've watched as Asov, C14 and their ilk have engaged in pogroms against Russian speakers, LGBT peoples, Roma gypsies and so forth.

No one speaks for the people of Donbas, no one cares about those Ukrainians who have been persecuted. Putin is in this war on the pretext of caring about those people, but truth is he doesn't or he would have intervened a long time ago. This is bad guy vs bad guy, with innocent people in the middle. Putin and the regime are murdering scum, as are the Kiev regime backed by the USA and co. I don't think Zelensky is a bad guy, but he's also not the one pulling the strings, he's just a mouthpiece. The true power lies in the military, which is run by white supremacists.

As for what could be on the table for peace talks, I'm guessing the Donbas, land bridge to Crimea and Ukraine never joining NATO would appease Russian interests. Ukraine can sue for security guarantees as well as a reconstruction fund. Ukraine can then lick its wounds and fortify itself. As long as they don't start trying to ethnically cleanse what remains of Ukrainians Russian population again all should be ok. Ukraine sealed its faith when it allowed a far right group to spearhead a coup and worm its way into the military and police.

Whatever stops people dying has my vote. A sizeable chunk of Ukrainians in the DPR/LPR regions are pro Russian anyway, plus Ukraine has called for the genocide against ethnic Russian Ukrainians publicly as I've witnessed over the past 8 years so sentiment is pretty anti post coup Ukraine, even if not Pro Russian. People want to get on and live their lives, they can do that as easily in Donbas if it's part of the Russian Federation. Screw your 'righteous' indignation, there are people dying by the hour there and a peace treaty needs to be hammered out ASAP.

It's not black and white, good vs evil. It's murdering regime vs murdering regime.

If you don't know what that is, you are not qualified to have an opinion on Ukrainian matters as you are completely ignorant of the history, and political situation there,.

By the time the west/Ukraine/NATO are finished with ye then any Russian left with a pot to piss in will think they have "arrived"! Even the McHorsemeat burgers that ye are now having to eat will be culinary delights for ye.

"The part of your brain that processes higher order information has atrophied into congealed mush" !

Ouch! Has to be best line in this thread.

Right so we are well aware of what has been happening the last 8 years in the Donbass.

What kicked it all off?

Would it be Russia and their illegal invasion of the Crimea?

So go in on waiting to hear how that was actually the Ukrainian governments fault.

I have a relative married to a Ukrainian also.

That is why the Ukrainians say they must fight and the west needs to fully understand this.