Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

bk · 14-06-2022 3:43pm

"Oh no no, that's not the idea here at all - as far as I understand. My understanding is that any operating contract signed before 2025 continues as is, but anything signed in '25 onwards would have to conform to the low emission requirements."

Hmmm, I could be wrong, the only mention of this "law" is the following and it seems to only apply to Poland. It seems to be a resilience/recovery plan for Poland, rather then legislation as such:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52022PC0268

Also the definition of Low Emission vehicles appears to include Euro 6 Diesels and Hybrids from the above document:

"Different types of technologies are envisaged to power zero- and low-emission buses (electric batteries, classical hybrids and plug-in, for gas: including LNG, LPG, CNG and EURO VI standard)."

So even if it applies to Ireland, I'd say DB and GAI should be pretty well sorted with a mix of these EV buses, the PA hybrids and Euro 6 SG class. More then enough buses between all them by 2025 to cover the entire Dublin City Bus fleet.

According to Dublin Buses fleet list (which may not be exactly up to date), they have 569 Euro 6 SG class, 216 plug-in hybrid PA class. So 785 valid buses there, plus lets say 100 of these EV buses delivered per year for the next 3 years, you'd be up to over 1,000+ buses.

"A lot would depend on the actual energy usage, but I suspect they'd be able to do about 200 km on a single charge."

I'd imagine so, though lots of factors can play into this, summer versus winter, heating/AC, full load versus empty, how much higher speed (e.g. motorway) running.

BTW Anyone know what difference a Dublin City Bus averages per day about? I know it would obviously differ per route, but a rough average?

bk · 14-06-2022 3:44pm

""Will the buses have windows along the staircase?"

Nope"

That is a pity, it looks great from a passenger and lighting perspective.

mikeybhoy · 14-06-2022 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200451#Comment_119200451

Everything about them is nasty from the drivers pov. I was told by a driver they take 2 or 3 attempts to move off then when they do go they shoot off and are difficult to get under control. They don't have the delayed acceleration which the SGs have. I've heard bad things about the PA/PADs aswell but they don't seem to be quite as Streetlites or streetsh*te as I've heard drivers dub them.

TranslatorPS · 14-06-2022 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201883#Comment_119201883

Ooops, looks like I've made the foolish assumption to think this would apply to all of EU. As things seem to be exactly as you say, I withdraw all of my comments regarding this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202476#Comment_119202476

I think the only negatives I've heard so far about the PA/PADs from drivers are about mirrors and the handbrake lever being really far back, but then again I haven't heard a whole lot about them to begin with. The Streetlite hate though? Yeah, consistent.

mikeybhoy · 14-06-2022 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201887#Comment_119201887

Advertising space on the outside is probably more important to the operators also more glass to replace if the bus is in a collision or deliberate damage such as stone throwing.

mikeybhoy · 14-06-2022 11:59pm

The seats on those hybrids look like they were inspired by the Urban 90 which were probably the most uncomfortable bus seat seen on the UK/Irish Market in recent times i know its only a demo model so hopefully they get the same seats as the PAs which are quite comfortable or better still the Esteban Civic seats which the AHs and the BE 2018 VWDs have.

I've heard the Electroliners in Belfast are actually quite good in terms of build quality so maybe Wrights have improved under Bamford.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201883#Comment_119201883

I don't know exact averages but I know it's not uncommon for DB buses to be out from 5 or 6 in the morning until 11 or 12 at night. Bus could be for 15/16 hours a day easily. Remember these buses are being passed from driver to driver to driver throughout the day.

With GAI it's a bit different as most buses stay with the one driver for the entire day .

TranslatorPS · 15-06-2022 2:09pm

BTW Anyone know what difference a Dublin City Bus averages per day about? I know it would obviously differ per route, but a rough average?

I don't know exact averages but I know it's not uncommon for DB buses to be out from 5 or 6 in the morning until 11 or 12 at night. Bus could be for 15/16 hours a day easily. Remember these buses are being passed from driver to driver to driver throughout the day.

With GAI it's a bit different as most buses stay with the one driver for the entire day .

I think the extremes would have to be the likes of the 13 (Conyngham Road mostly, Harristown is, well, Harristown), 27, and 155. Two buses on the Mon-Fri and one on the Sunday 155 bill would do about 275 km in service and a further 30 km out of service, one Saturday bus has a full five laps, which would be in the 305 km area without the garage deadheading - in fact, most of the 155 workings are way out of electric scope at the moment. One of the Saturday 27 buses out of Ringsend also does full five laps - 290 km in service - plus another 35ish deadheading (Jobstown start and finish). The N4 is a lot more fragmented than this, but there are two Saturday and two Sunday buses to do 7 laps each, just short of 340 km in service. That said, that should indicate the possible extremes, and the averages should be a fair bit lower.

DB are very liberal when it comes to empty mileage and bringing buses back and forth between termini and a garage just to balance out driving hours, so whatever averages we get might as well be muddled depending on the counting method: are we counting all the miles of a particular diagram (board/block) in a single day, or just miles "from gate to gate"? In the case of the latter it's kind of important as drivers starting in the garage later in the day are just as likely to pull out a different bus than the one that pulled in earlier on the same board, and it allows for some charging flexibility - although then again we should be cautious of battery lifespan.

GAI isn't exactly like that: their methods are a lot more fragmented, even if there are clear patterns everywhere. Most rotas will have handovers throughout the day, but certain routes are just more likely to have midday finishes and starts take place in the garage rather than out in the city (DL, 17+114, 175 spring to mind), while others will ferry the drivers and have them take over in the city (Bray, looks like the N6 now). GAI are less likely to have extreme mileages "from gate to gate" (disregarding the buses based in the Airport during the day, they have to be counted at full day for electrification purposes), but I note two of the Mon-Fri N6 buses do 8 laps, that should bring them to somewhere near 272 km in service each, and another three have 7.5 laps each.

Jamie2k9 · 15-06-2022 11:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196296#Comment_119196296

Apparently 640 Dublin / 160 Outside Dublin.

mikeybhoy · 16-06-2022 12:39am

I wonder what what fleet codes they'll get. My bets for DB would be either EL, WE or EW and for BE the fleet code will be ELW, WEL or EWB.

TranslatorPS · 16-06-2022 12:41pm

BE will probably have a three-letter code finishing in D, since the VWDs, PADs, and HWDs do so, pretty much all the double-deckers to enter service in the last 14 years as such.

EW doesn't sound too far off the mark for DB though, as Electric Wrights it might fall into the pattern of PAs - and then perhaps BE will fall in line as EWD. I am curious as to how the single deckers will fall in - ES for DB, ESL for BE? Most of the recent single deckers ended in L for longer and M for shorter wheelbases (AM, VWL, WM/WL, SL, DWM), pretty much only the Citaro MCs and some of the Trident stuff breaks out of that pattern.

On another note, it is my presumption that the last 24 hybrids will be for GAI due to the W4/W6 tender, at which point I'm wondering if they won't be numbered in a potental 40000 series, seeing how it's their fourth separate contract (outer Dublin is first, all fleet is 10000, rte 197 is second, 2000, Kildare commuter is third, 30000s).

LXFlyer · 16-06-2022 2:55pm

It’s quite possible that the 24 buses will go to DB and SGs cascaded to GAI.

The city centre has a greater need for hybrids than the orbitals in terms of reducing air pollution.

bk · 16-06-2022 5:57pm

"The city centre has a greater need for hybrids than the orbitals in terms of reducing air pollution."

Yes, plus I'd imagine that City Center routes has more stop/go traffic and lower speeds, which is an operating pattern more suited to Hybrids.

Pity the EV Class is already taken and some currently on the road, it would have been a good code for these buses, plus I always thought the PA's should have been ER class (their model is Enviro 400ER).

Perhaps ED for Electric Decker.

bk · 16-06-2022 6:16pm

"DB are very liberal when it comes to empty mileage and bringing buses back and forth between termini and a garage just to balance out driving hours, so whatever averages we get might as well be muddled depending on the counting method: are we counting all the miles of a particular diagram (board/block) in a single day, or just miles "from gate to gate"? In the case of the latter it's kind of important as drivers starting in the garage later in the day are just as likely to pull out a different bus than the one that pulled in earlier on the same board, and it allows for some charging flexibility - although then again we should be cautious of battery lifespan."

Wrights claim these buses have 200 miles range, which is 321km. Of course I'd take such claims when it comes to EV's with a massive grain of salt, 200 to 250km depending on conditions is probably more likely.

Wrights also claim they can fast charge to full in 2.5 hours.

Sounds like most routes will relatively easily fall under this distance and could charge overnight.

For the odd extreme long route, like the 27 and 155, then if the driver can swap bus in the depot in the middle of the day, then that would be an opportunity for the bus to get a second recharge off peak in the middle of the day before the evening peak.

Of course worth pointing out, that even when this order is complete in 5 years, these Electric buses will be only half the fleet. It may make sense to just continue to operate longer routes like these with the SG and PA's.

Of course in 5 years there is likely to be another tender to then replace the SG's and PA's with more Electric buses, but battery technology will have moved on and it maybe possible to get buses with even bigger battery and range. Perhaps 300 miles, but more realistically 300km, which could then cover even these long routes with just one charge.

TranslatorPS · 16-06-2022 8:31pm

Wrights claim these buses have 200 miles range, which is 321km. Of course I'd take such claims when it comes to EV's with a massive grain of salt, 200 to 250km depending on conditions is probably more likely.

Precisely, I can't see them doing 300 km on a good day. I could see a single-decker doing that, but not a double-decker.

For the odd extreme long route, like the 27 and 155, then if the driver can swap bus in the depot in the middle of the day, then that would be an opportunity for the bus to get a second recharge off peak in the middle of the day before the evening peak.

Honestly all DB have to do on these longer roads is just adjust the schedule here and there and have more early duties finishing and late duties starting in the garage, circulating more buses throughout the day, and it should solve it. I'd say the one major route that would have to be rescheduled from scratch is the 145 to have buses float between Bray and Donnybrook better (or better yet, just don't put electrics on the Bray 145 at all), but I'd say the 145 would be faaaar down the list of routes to electrify, and its eventual spiritual replacement under BusConnects falls into the same category as the 155...

mikeybhoy · 17-06-2022 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119211411#Comment_119211411

It would also be enough buses to finish off the remaining AXs.

LXFlyer · 18-06-2022 12:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217354#Comment_119217354

The 24 PAs are fleet expansion buses - not replacement.

mikeybhoy · 20-06-2022 10:51pm

Who's providing the parts and after sales support for the electrics? Wrights themselves or have they appointed a dealer? M3 Van Centre do the Streetlites (I think) but I doubt they'd have the resources for a larger order.

zell12 · 21-06-2022 6:48pm

Shiny polished new hydrogen bus

mikeybhoy · 21-06-2022 7:13pm

Where's it going?

zell12 · 21-06-2022 7:55pm

It is at the launch of the Hydrogen Hub in Galway

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/public-meetings-to-take-place-this-week-in-city-on-gh2-hydrogen-hub/ https://www.gh2.ie/

Hotblack Desiato · 22-06-2022 11:46am

Very close to grounding out the trailer there... feckin' speed bumps

PAD85 · 22-06-2022 2:02pm

Good to see the switch to electric finally get underway!

d51984 · 23-06-2022 7:50pm

Ridiculous though when you think about it, off to the long mile road for our 3 hydrogen friends to refuel, handy overtime right there $$$$!

mikeybhoy · 23-06-2022 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240629#Comment_119240629

I think DB had one back in the day that had to be fueled down the docks

d51984 · 23-06-2022 8:16pm

That was VL6, one of the very first low floor buses for Dublin. Last time I seen that was somewhere in Wales minus its front bumper. I as on a passing train.. London bound.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ADublin_Bus_bus_VL6_%2898-D-2006%29.jpg

mikeybhoy · 23-06-2022 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240732#Comment_119240732

Well spotted from a train

mikeybhoy · 24-06-2022 11:48pm

I see Go-Ahead now have ex London hybrids being used as training buses. The livery on these looks really good IMO. Better than the NTA livery for sure. https://twitter.com/Bowseygobrea/status/1540412082939723777?t=omlT3WniquMejXf8PTacAg&s=19

Hotblack Desiato · 25-06-2022 3:03am

Did they have to borrow a spare mirror off DB? 😀

dublinman1990 · 26-06-2022 9:38pm

Go-Ahead must be using all of their 3 hybrid training buses for plenty of runs ahead of the G-Spine launch in August and for the Southern Orbitals in November. It is good to see them out and about. The livery is quite decent on them too.

d51984 · 26-06-2022 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119254444#Comment_119254444

Have they still got the single deck Mercs?

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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