Tilt and turn window board too low

moldy_sea · 08-06-2022 4:12pm #1

Have a situation where window board is 40mm too low in conjunction with tilt and turn windows.

Any suggestions for meeting part k without changing or moving the windows?

sydthebeat · 09-06-2022 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058249373/tilt-and-turn-window-board-too-low

part K doesnt affect the window board.

what exactly is the issue

moldy_sea · 09-06-2022 2:09pm

Height of window board from floor could allow a small child to climb up

sydthebeat · 09-06-2022 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179087#Comment_119179087

sorry, you havent stated what exactly the issue is.

what dimension is exceeded??

part K makes no mention anywhere to window board, so im not sure what regulation you think is not complied with here.

if its safety from falling out of the window (section 2.7) then the openable section of the window should be more than 800mm off inside floor level (when there more than 1400 of a fall to the external ground level. Plus, there should be safety restrictors applied to the windows.

do these apply to your situation?

a pic would help

Penn · 09-06-2022 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179206#Comment_119179206

Section 2.4 of TGD K says guarding should be provided for any window where the sill is more than 1400mm above ground level externally and less than 800mm above internal floor level. While 2.7 refers to the openable section of window, 2.4 refers to the internal sill which would be the windowboard. I'm presuming that's what's being referred to.

sydthebeat · 09-06-2022 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179241#Comment_119179241

2.4 says:

2.4 Guarding should be provided for any window, the sill of which is more than 1400 mm above external ground level and is less than 800 mm in height above internal floor level (see Diagram 7). Where a window is capable of being opened, special care must be taken to ensure that the guarding must remain in place and effective at all times.

the window "sill" is essentially the bottom of the bottom rail of the window. its the same thing inside and outside. in the case of an openable window its the lower section of the window that remains when the sash is opened.

its not the window board.

Assuming more than 1400 externally, once that (the sill) exceeds 800mm above internal floor level and a safety restrictor is applied, then it complies with Part K.

Interestingly this section was brought into Part K in the 2005 revision due to a contradiction between the 1991 Parts K and B, where some certifiers were restricting the openable section of ground floor windows to 800 above floor level, which made no sense and led to weirdly designed windows.

if you refer back to the 1991 Part K youll see that the "cill" is considered to be the bottom rail of the window, not the window board

moldy_sea · 09-06-2022 2:41pm

Thanks. I'm referring to the openable section. In my case the top of the window board is only a few mm below the openable section. I'll see if I can get a pic later.

sydthebeat · 09-06-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179351#Comment_119179351

first floor window?

moldy_sea · 09-06-2022 2:45pm

I'll measure the cill to floor and check. We had been measuring to the top of window board/openable area. Assuming it is still less than 800 is there an acceptable solution for tilt and turn?

sydthebeat · 09-06-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179390#Comment_119179390

assuming its a first floor bedroom we're talking about here....TGD B refers to the "openable section" .. so measure from the floor to the openable section.

the fact the window is 'tilt and turn' is completely immaterial

moldy_sea · 09-06-2022 2:51pm

Picture attached and yes we have restrictiors in place. It is a bedroom on first floor.

PXL_20211025_143530537.jpg

sydthebeat · 09-06-2022 2:52pm

once its more than 800mm to the "openable section" then i cant see anything wrong with that arrangement

moldy_sea · 09-06-2022 3:08pm

Yep, the problem is that we are a bit short of 800mm and are looking for a solution.

Penn · 09-06-2022 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179317#Comment_119179317

That's interesting alright. I was going by how Section 2.4 & Diagram 7 shows dimension lines to the bottom of the bottom rail of the window (which would generally be the top of the windowboard internally), compared to Section 2.7 & Diagram 9 which shows the dimension line to the bottom of the openable section of window (top of the bottom rail). It felt like a purposeful distinction they were making.

sydthebeat · 09-06-2022 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179574#Comment_119179574

im not sure theres any purpose to that distinction?

as 2.7 deals specifically with "safety restrictors" then they can only be applied to openable sections.

2.4 also applies to windows which cannot be opened. Thus we have situations as are covered in diagram 8. In fact diagram 8 is a good example of what can be allowed with a window board lower than 800mm off floor level. In this case its safety glazing that actuals acts as the "guarding".

it makes no sense to consider a window board at, lets say, 400mm off the floor level as being non compliant once guarding is applied to the glazing such that diagram 8 is satisfied. and in the case that this window opens, there will be a rail here separating the opening glazing from the fixed.

Another example is a rooflight where no window board exists. The maximum height in these cases is the distance from the opening to the floor level.

interesting discussion though !!

Penn · 09-06-2022 3:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179679#Comment_119179679

Oh I definitely agree that "sill" doesn't specifically mean windowboard, I was just going by what the OP was stating and took it that the bottom of the bottom rail would also be the top of the windowboard in the scenario they were describing. Like you say, a much lower windowboard would require guarding at that point anyway, especially as the windowboard could be considered climbable.

It does seem like a needless and arbitrary distinction though between the two sections I noted which do seem to purposefully be different for little-to-no reason. Probably not an issue though considering the sill in such cases will always be lower than the openable section of the window, so complying with that means the window will require a restrictor regardless.

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179457#Comment_119179457

Checked measurements and we have one bedroom at 30mm short of 800 from floor to openable section.

@sydthebeat / @Penn do you know any solutions that don't involve replacing or moving windows?

sydthebeat · 13-06-2022 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195419#Comment_119195419

whats the floor finish?

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195504#Comment_119195504

laminate - throughout whole of first floor - I think it is 14mm. Under that is a screed with UFH.

sydthebeat · 13-06-2022 11:54am

not much you can do at this stage other than management.

Ensure the restrictor is always working.

Dont locate furniture under the window.

i assume the window handle is halfway up the window and not at the bottom.

if it becomes an absolute issue for say a sale of a house, you may be able to fix a panel to the outside of the window frame (seeing as its tilt and turn) to ensure theres 800mm between floor and openable section, but id only do this as a last resort.

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195555#Comment_119195555

It is a building control issue not a sale issue. Already fixed glass outside but they did not accept it.

sydthebeat · 13-06-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195579#Comment_119195579

picture please?

the previous picture you posted doesn't look like a tilt and turn window?

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195610#Comment_119195610

Ignore the bar going across that temporarily holds a blind. I modified to preserve privacy.

PXL_20220613_113601875.jpg

muffler · 13-06-2022 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195811#Comment_119195811

A rod/bar restricting access and you're worried about the height from the floor? Am I missing something?

sydthebeat · 13-06-2022 1:57pm

not sure how you ended up with the window board so high up the bottom rail of the window... but still.

doesnt seem like you have much option here if the BCO digs their heels in.

those restrictors look terrible too, was there nothing they could use to restrict within the openable frame?

can the window manufactures come back and reduce the size of the opening sections and add on another bottom rail to bring it above the required 30mm?

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196117#Comment_119196117

The rod is a tension rod to hold a temporary blind - it's not staying

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196252#Comment_119196252

Hadn't thought of asking them that - I'll check that out but it will look a bit weird

sydthebeat · 13-06-2022 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196307#Comment_119196307

Well the alternative is taking the window out and raising the cill and being a new window made.

Seems a bit much for 30mm though

cruizer101 · 13-06-2022 2:34pm

Can you add something in front of the window.

A friend I know when they purchased new house it had windows that went down to I'd say about 400m above floor level. To comply with safety regs the builder put another piece of glass in front of the window that effectively raised the accessible height, kind of a glass railing.

Something like this, not as big and on inside

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196560#Comment_119196560

We already did that but it was not accepted.

moldy_sea · 13-06-2022 2:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196484#Comment_119196484

Indeed - a very expensive solution that will take months. There must be another way. Would a spring loaded internal barrier that can be opened in event of emergency do?

Tilt and turn window board too low

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