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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Exactly so Doh. Only way to get ahead of the game is to spend every penny available NOW on pre investment while the dail / committees / civil service drag this out and try to batter down the numbers. No more handing back unspent budget for a start. Splash some cash on some upgrades to the ships and on gettin Baldonnel ready for the new squadron etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    There is no penny’s available right now and won’t be until the Daíl votes for it. Nothing is likely to be started until the next budget.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Au Contraire, there are plenty of cost neutral items in LOA2 that can be implemented in the morning, with the stroke of a ministerial pen. In addition, there are many sanctioned big ticket items that have been held up awaiting the CoDF to report initially, and now for LOA2 to be implemented. We have been búlaig ám for almost 2 years. Its time to either go sudar marsáil, or stad now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    In terms of capital budgets, the only major outstanding project is the MRV. What else do you suggest could be started up within the next 3 months that has spare capital budget capacity? And as I understand it the MRV has already been shifted back by the DOD to the next financial year already. There certainly isn’t budget in the 100m or so of base infrastructure for any significant upgrades to Baldonnel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    All the cost neutral items in the recommendations, such as renaming, changing establishment of NS to cater for a 9 ship double crewed fleet, and other things that require ministerial approval, instead of inclusion on a capital budget.

    Join SAC or similar.

    Implement the WTD in day to day DF duties.

    Create the Joint Cyber Defence Command.

    It might give those currently serving some belief that this isn't all just another broken promise.

    And lets not forget the Primary Radar that was promised in the White paper. Start an RFP now at least, explore the market, see what is required, in time for an RFT once we figure out what is needed. Indeed, in the meantime you could retrofit all 4 P60s with the Air Search radar they were designed to take.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The Vast majority of that list isn't Cost Neutral, only the window dressing of name changing and paper work of changing the establishment figures, that's just tokenism in it's own right.

    Joining SAC will cost, Implementing WTD will cost, anything Cyber will cost, Primary Radar, or refitting the P60's all costs.

    None of that is going to happen without the Cabinet signing off, and most likely the Daíl. No different than the Germans going from an announcement of increasing defence spending to the Bundestag finally signing off on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Whats wrong with scarficing CB. It was designed as a barracks of ocuppation. If getting rid of CB to get sleepy Ryan to sign off on Lao2 or above so be it. In a modern state is there a need for military barracks in the middle of a city?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Most definitely. See our nearest neighbours, a major barracks right in the middle of the Mall between the residence of the head of state and the head of government. The UK armed forces assisted UK police in dealing with a number of terrorism incidents in Greater London in recent years. France also has a large military force located in Paris. Belgium is weird, because it's more like 3 countries, but again Brussels has a sizeable military force in residence there.

    Our problem is we have 2. One housing the DFHQ, the other containing the majority of combat and combat support units for the 2nd Brigade.

    When I joined the DF there used to be 5 in the Greater Dublin area alone. Griffith, Clancy, Collins, McKee, Cathal Brugha, with DF sitting HQ between Collins and McKee in Parkgate, and Baldonnel on the city outskirts.

    That said, I'd move the majority out to the don, leave the vital units in McKee. The argument that the barracks is needed there so EOD can respond to .. or Govt buildings etc is fine, but that does not really justify having an entire Logs train, and all the day to day admin of each resident unit within the City. You could just as easily send the "first responders" to McKee, and rotate as necessary. I mean, realistically, about a fifth of the Army is based in Rathmines. At least in Cork, Collins Barracks is on the northern fringes of the city, with easy access to the main routes out of the city.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    But these items are things already scheduled to be done in the lifetime of the WP, and funding is available within current budget for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    A joint base in casement would make perfect sense espcially for troop transport.

    In regards to first responders would the average solider not be around 6th in line to be called for a terrorism incident



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    No they aren’t, the only thing in the current capital spending envelope is the MRV. Primary Radar under the WP was “if extra funding became available” for example. No extra funding has yet become available has it? The WP didn’t even mention things like refitting the P60s. There isn’t any extra money moved to the DF budget as yet, nor cabinet approval for any extra spending as of yet.

    The current budget items are what was decided last October, along with the planned capital program out to 2025 from memory, as of yet nothing has changed in terms of either funding or direction for the DF or DOD, and won’t till at least after the cabinet if not next budget.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    I'm going to challenge you somewhat on terminology. Mounting a radar on a mast platform that has already been designed to take one is not considered a "refit".



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Depends on the incident really, without going into too much detail. AGS will always be first, but depending on the circumstances, Gardai of certain rank have authority to mobilise the DF to assist, with nothing more than a phone call.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    They are rated for the weight, but are all the power and data connections present in the mast? What changes might need to be made to bridge fittings?

    Either way you are dodging the main point, none of that is in any current budget plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    Did they disband the 5th in the CB? The 7th and 2nd are still in CB



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    What part of "designed for" confuses you? Initial drawings for the P60 show them with an Air Search Radar on the mast, they are "fitted for, but not with". After that it's plug and play as the user interface on the bridge are multi function displays that can display radar, charts, AIS or even engineering monitoring.

    At present there is duplication of displays, but this is unnecessary, and one display could easily be operated by a suitably qualified operator. We used to have them when Eithne's Signaal was functioning.

    I'm dodging nothing. I'm telling you that replacing the additional surface search radar on the P60s with an Air search radar is not a big ticket item, and can be done without making the headlines, in the same way L.E. Eithne got Caley davits replacing the Boarding boat, Liberty boat and associated gravity davits, and the Effer crane on the helideck.

    All it takes is the usual end of year underspend, and re-allocation of funds. Not Big ticket.

    Do you remember how Cav got their Mowags? Christmas week. MLH cancelled, money went to buy more Mowags. Sorted.

    It can be done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    2 Inf and 5th Inf are both gone, merged into 7th Inf (At some annoyance to the former members of 7th Inf Bn FCA).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Interesting.

    I wrongly taught it would be along the line of

    A Garda in a I40 then depending on who is nearby be Normal Detective, ASU, ERU, then if its really bad the ARW and then when its to late normal troops.

    You learn something new everyday



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    That's how it was at least. I'm not sure where the ASU fit into the chain, they didn't exist in my day.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I uderstood there was real antipathy from Garda hierarchy to ARW. Came out during Queens visit when they were not deployed and ARW personnel later revealed he was threatened with arrest when he went on a preliminary site assessment. Strangely there were newspaper reports of heavily armed “troops” in accompanying helicopters during that visit. Maybe ERU were confused with troops by media. Maybe SAS deployed for all we know.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Could we 'lease' an island/similar to an EU power to build a naval base for their fleet?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    the DF are aid to the civil power (ATCP) regardless of the unit or function. AGS will be the forefront of anything until deemed necessary to call upon the defence forces. Few brass look down on the military even worse than a regular mule. Youd need a full blown civil war for a brass to call on the DF (bit exaggerated for emphasis)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Why would any of them be interested in doing our job for us? We aren’t in any structures like NATO and the Eastern CAPs, and rightfully right now nobody is interested in aiding our freeloading on defence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,477 ✭✭✭kk.man


    When the government has no confidence in the government jet ... it's time to wave the White flag.......

    I have one serious question...did an chief of staff over the last 20 odd years raise the question of Ireland's ability to defend herself in a report form,,??? They mostly kiss ass anyway.

    If they didn't raise this important question with the department of defence they should be called accountable.

    Freedom of information should sort this out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    There have been numerous FOIs recently where requests for equipment were shot down by the DoD, and that was the end of the matter. You can only shout at the wall for so long before you lose your voice. The CoS answers to the minister, and the DoD are in effect the ministers office. That said, there were also senior officers in the general staff (not the CoS) who did their utmost to prevent the "non Army" branches of the defence forces getting anything that might permit them to operate independently of the Army overseas. A recent FOI for example showed that Pilatus had an extra PC12NG it was willing to sell us. We turned it down, the reason given by a Maj Gen in DFHQ being there was no place to park it and there was a shortage of pilots.

    Shortly after we saw the type flying almost daily to Germany with samples for testing or to collect PPE, sometimes with a crew of Pilot, Co-Pilot, and 2 more pilots in the back acting as aircrew, but sharing the flying, to get their hours on type in.

    I have known previous CoS, and most find they make more progress working within the system instead of trying to upset it. The fact we were without a full time minister for defence in effect Since 2011, and were stuck with an absolute idiot as a Junior minister with responsibility for defence during that entire time did the organisation no favours.

    We were trying to deal with the organ grinder, but we could only talk to the monkey.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,074 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I don’t think a single aircraft in the roster of a commercial entity or military spends more time in maintenance then the air…

    if an F-18 spent 18 hours flying this week, it’s going to require 20 hours of maintenance before it can fly again ?

    What ‘serious drone’ would be suitable to fulfil the role as a primary method of air defence ? What drone would have the range, endurance and weapons / armament carrying capability?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,692 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    What was the truth about the 5th pc12. Was it a general trying to get promotion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Yawlboy


    The Swiss recently chose the F35 over all other options as it had the lowest Total Cost of Ownership. If we do buy fighter jets we will keep them for a long time, buying older aircraft with high hours on their airframes will be a waste. We should go for the best value for money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I agree. New is way to go for peace of mind and bullet proof support from manufacturer.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭tippilot


    The maintenance figure will always refer to man hours - an important distinction. How long it spends on the ground will depend on the number of bodies assigned to your maintenance team.



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