Consultation open till 27th May on taxi fares and requiring card payment ( link in OP )

Spook_ie · 30-05-2022 04:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131009#Comment_119131009

Generally speaking

1 Credit Cards are verified real time, very few card impressions (off line transactions ) are used now, even when you do a card not present transaction over the internet or phone needing your CVV number they check to see if you have a sufficent credit balance for the purchase

2 Debit cards I know my debit card won't work unless there are sufficent funds in my account and that it is checked in real time. No connection to the banks computers = no use card

And don't treat me as a fool, Yes I know that credit cards don't have a wifi connection, however Google Pay etc does have internet via your phone network or wifi connection.

As regards fraud I only said there is nothing to stop people saying that there's something wrong with my equipment stopping me from taking card payment so therefore the fare should be free. As you might have sussed that is something I'm totally against.

bk · 30-05-2022 11:08AM

No point in saying "Generally Speaking".

You were complaining about how to take a card payment in the extraordinary situation that you don't have an internet connection. Well solutions exist for this, offline terminals exist and are used widely in the payment industry.

Of course banks would prefer all transactions be online for obvious reasons, but they understand that there are circumstances where it isn't always possible and offer the offline option. Imagine if the internet goes down in Tesco for a few hours, do you think they sit there not taking any payments! Of course not, they flip their terminals over to offline mode and continue to do business.

"And don't treat me as a fool, Yes I know that credit cards don't have a wifi connection, however Google Pay etc does have internet via your phone network or wifi connection."

But again, your phone doesn't need the internet connection to make a payment. It simply wouldn't make any sense to force that on mobile payments. You wouldn't a situation where a person couldn't pay for a bus or a bottle of water if they had no credit on their phone account or didn't have an internet connection. It isn't a requirement for a credit/debit card, so why would they make it a requirement for a phone?

I've worked with this tech, I can send you all the documentation on this for both Apple and Google that an internet conenction isn't necessary and how secure enclaves work if your interested.

This whole conversation is BS IMO. If you are worried about internet connection, then get a card reader with an IoT SIM, they work across all mobile networks, 3g/4g and every major radio frequency. They basically jump between networks and frequencies until they find a connection. There is no way you won't find a connection with one of these anywhere in Dublin.

30-05-2022 11:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107797#Comment_119107797

Trying to understand taxi driver logic is a fool's errand. My dad was one for a few years and he could never understand how their minds worked. More than once he'd do a last fare at a cut price if someone seemed stuck, rest of the drivers would **** people off and then sit at the rank til 6am then go home. Or my sister was expensing €150-200 taxis home from work a few years ago, could be waiting half an hour in Dublin city centre on a Tuesday night while her mates got one straight away. Most of the drivers would then be grumbling about the long trip as though they'd make more in 1.5 hours shuttling around Dublin rather than a simple straight run on a motorway. 🤨

trellheim · 30-05-2022 11:30AM

This whole conversation is BS IMO. If you are worried about internet connection, then get a card reader with an IoT SIM, they work across all mobile networks, 3g/4g and every major radio frequency. They basically jump between networks and frequencies until they find a connection. There is no way you won't find a connection with one of these anywhere in Dublin.

There are certain blackspots with no Internet connectivity in Dublin ( on all networks, no 3g/4g/5g ) and I'm not talking up in the hills or fields . There are not many though.

In relation to your point, can you turn a SumUp or Elavon machine to offline mode ? I didnt know you could do that .

bk · 30-05-2022 06:04PM

"There are certain blackspots with no Internet connectivity in Dublin ( on all networks, no 3g/4g/5g ) and I'm not talking up in the hills or fields . There are not many though."

Keep in mind 2G is also an option and tends to have wider coverage. These machines use tiny amounts of data, it isn't like video streaming, you'd be surprised what you could send on a frequency hoping IOT/World SIM.

"In relation to your point, can you turn a SumUp or Elavon machine to offline mode ? I didnt know you could do that ."

The basic Sumup device, no, it doesn't have an offline mode. I believe most Elavon Machines do have an offline mode, but you should check your particular model of machine.

the boss of me · 30-05-2022 06:49PM

There's already a shortage of Taxis. They should be trying to encourage drivers to enter the business not putting barriers in the way. It's a difficult enough job listening to drunken know it all duckheads without giving half of your earnings to the taxman.

Spook_ie · 30-05-2022 07:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131009#Comment_119131009

So generally speaking, you can use the term but no one else can. I'm pretty sure there's likely to be something in the code of practice that doesn't allow the banks to do such sharp practice, There'd be hell to pay if they were.

Anyway i still think you are wrong and so it would appear do Google Pay

Detailed Google Pay transaction process in shops

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8G42DXAbnPcW5zwLPp_JddUOQHyhOFcd8ePLylRoaXODzh3SmkFNyEuSYKUZveKK_HwH=w703

Figure 1: The flow of an NFC payment

Customer tokenises card: A customer adds their card to Google Pay. Then their mobile device stores a payment token that is encrypted using a limited/single-use key.
Merchant receives token: When the customer taps their device on an NFC-enabled terminal at the shop's point-of-sale, the device sends the token, token expiry date and cryptogram to the terminal via the NFC protocol.
Merchant processes payment: The merchant uses the card data to process the payment through the acquiring bank. Note: You must flag the payment as a contactless transaction, either via the point-of-sale system or via the payment terminal.
Acquirer processes payment: Acquirer processes card data captured via NFC using the appropriate payment network.
TSP translates token: The TSP validates the cryptogram, then translates the token into the customer's actual card number.
Card-issuing bank receives cardholder info: The network sends the card-issuing bank the customer's card number, expiry date and an indicator that an on-behalf-of validation has been completed by the TSP.
Network receives authorisation response: The card-issuing bank completes account-level validation and authorisation checks and sends the authorisation response to the network.
Terminal notifies of transaction authorisation success or failure: The network passes the authorisation response through the acquirer to your point-of-sale, and finally to the customer. The payment terminal shows the cardholder and cashier a success or failure message.

Spook_ie · 30-05-2022 07:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131009#Comment_119131009

BTW I still remember the credit card days of old when if you were buying something in excess of whatever value was imposed by the bank required an authorisation code be obtained via POTS and written onto the credit card slip. Pretty much the same as now except it's all done electronically over networks today.

bikeman1 · 30-05-2022 08:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136380#Comment_119136380

Why should taxi drivers pay a different rates of tax to anyone else in society?

If a person makes net profit of €40k, then they pay the same tax as a PAYE worker on the same amount.

50% of something is better than 50% of nothing.

the boss of me · 30-05-2022 09:40PM

Because it's a disincentive to work. For every €100 earned , €40 goes on expenses. Of the €60 left the taxman wants half. It's why I leave my part time taxi sitting idle in the driveway and why my employer can't cover shifts. Staff are not willing to do O/T and pay half in taxes. Work has to pay at the end of the day. This is why there's a shortage of Taxis. The returns just aren't there. It's simply not worth the be trouble.

Idleater · 01-06-2022 05:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136616#Comment_119136616

Just a FYI, as it occurred at 36000 feet, Ryanair accept phone payment. And being Ryanair, they wait for the transaction to be successful before they get your fellow passenger's food.

bk · 01-06-2022 07:59PM

https://www.which.co.uk/money/banking/banking-security-and-new-ways-to-pay/ways-to-pay/what-is-android-pay-arqd27r349l3

"Google Pay can perform transactions offline but you'll need to connect to the internet from time to time so that the app can sync with Google's servers."

Basically Google Pay stores a number of tokens locally which you can use for offline payment. Obviously you need an internet connection to first set it up and to sync from time to time, but it does support offline payments.

Apple Pay doesn't need internet either:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8204935

Spook_ie · 02-06-2022 03:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119146168#Comment_119146168

Such a shame that all their customers didn't have Google Pay or Apple Pay, I assume you're going to tell me that they worked fine

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0321/1287673-opayo/

Spook_ie · 02-06-2022 03:55AM

https://www.emnify.com/blog/global-2g-3g-phase-out#Europe

Better make sure that your IoT isn't reliant on 2g/3g soon

trellheim · 02-06-2022 10:09AM

Are Ryanair in flight transactions done over satcom then ? I did not know that.

02-06-2022 10:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136380#Comment_119136380

Nobody pays half their earnings to Revenue

Idleater · 02-06-2022 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148044#Comment_119148044

It's possible, or they work offline as described above and sync on landing (after the seat belt signs have been switched off).

The point moreso is that the customer phone is in airplane mode, so it doesn't have a internet round trip.

That means that the "black hole" no coverage is basically only a potential problem for the terminal in the taxi. If such a situation arose, I'm sure the driver could try again in an area of more coverage, or just have a multi provider connection.

TranslatorPS · 02-06-2022 12:35PM

I would assume that the in-flight Ryanair transactions are stored on the machine and only relayed on ground. I've bought coffee on board and the Ulster Bank notification about a card payment that usually pops up within half a minute or so didn't appear until a good while after landing. If I wasn't quitting ULSB at the moment I'd be willing to even check how long it takes on my next flight.

trellheim · 02-06-2022 02:02PM

As I said there are gaps in coverage inside the M50 and in the general region, right down to 2G and lower. Now, in most places this does not matter, but in the rare case where a cab terminal cannot establish a connection there will be issues. For example if you are down the back of piperstown

Consultation open till 27th May on taxi fares and requiring card payment ( link in OP )

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