Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

I've no idea TBH... I saw the reference, didn't know anything about the hotel and did a basic search, expanding it a wee bit to check the actual quality involved. Just thought to post the wiki reference to save people the need to do their own searches.

Still.. from what I understand the hotel and associated areas were closed, as the owners couldn't keep it profitable. Honestly, it sounds like the government has decided to bail out the owners by providing them with guaranteed income for two years. Just reinforces the impression I have that our politicians and the property/investment developers have rather corrupt interests in helping each other out, usually with the taxpayer footing the bill. I can't imagine supporting this hotel will come cheap.

Wonder will Irish or Ukrainians be employed to operate it, or will more low-skilled migrants be needed to fill those positions..

not to mention the fact that in East Meath we already have Mosney Direct Provision Centre (people stuck there for over 5 years) and a few fields away Gormanston Army camp housing Ukranian refugees. Now this plan is to build 569 units housing up to 2300 Ukranians for up to 5 years (temporary of course!). Are these Ukranian families all going home after 5 years?

Many people in this heavily congested area are waiting years on the housing list, unable to get kids places in schools and unable to get on any GP waiting list. Many people moved here from Dublin as they couldn't get houses there...... and are still attending their GPs in Dublin as they cannot get access to one here! Its almost impossible even now to get access to the M1 motorway to get to work as the feeder roads from all the developments here go through Julianstown which is at a standstill every morning.

Meanwhile 20k up the road in Malahide where our Minister for Housing lives there are no army camps full of refugees, no DP centres, and no plans being submitted to build 569 "temporary" 5 year units to house Ukranians in an already incredibly congested area!

the local response to this is one of huge anger. While there are many people out there doing good work and regularly posting how much volunteering they are doing, this is a completely different kettle of fish. When your area is absolutely swamped already with a huge influx of people from Dublin who have been pushed out of the housing market there, a Direct Provision centre, an Army camp and this new proposed development all within an 5-8km radius, and the extreme pressure on local services even before the refugee influx, no wonder there is anger.

People are waking up. I would call on the Minister for Housing to match the numbers of refugees being dumped in East Meath with similar "temporary" camps in Malahide where he lives. See how that works out.

That's simply not going to happen.

Reconstruction, and the removal of ordnance from the country will take years.. their economy is going to be a shambles for ages (worse than it was previously), and it's highly likely that there will be serious issues with disease in Ukraine afterwards (destroyed infrastructure, bodies left behind, along with the polluted/radiated equipment that many militaries employ, etc). These people are not going to immediately return when the war ends. It simply unrealistic.

And they're going to continue begging for handouts because they do need those handouts. The worst economy in Europe before the war. Serious political corruption which affected the confidence in the banks. Black market economies. (the underlying conditions have not changed in spite of their sudden elevation to sainthood by being the victims) The list of negatives about Ukraine before the war is rather substantial.. and then, to add all those negatives directly related to the war itself? They're not going to be in any kind of position to "fix" their country on their own.

Ukraine will continue to remain a problem requiring investment and attention from Ireland for well over a decade, if not two.. All EU members will be made responsible. The propaganda to push such responsibility has been ongoing since before the conflict kicked off.

The sad truth is that no amount of investment will ever be enough, which will provide plenty of justification to demand continued attention/support by Ireland or other European nations in helping Ukraine and Ukrainians (whether that's in Ukraine or those in EU countries)

You're attributing an argument to me that I didn't make. Ukraine is not and has never been a failed state. People tend to exaggerate by using that term too freely. Ukraine was fully capable of continuing as a 2nd world nation, with the same economic problems that exist within most former communist nations. Even with the aftermath of the war, Ukraine is highly unlikely to face any consideration of a failed state, which is far more of a first world problem.

A number of African nations were substantial exporters of agriculture, all the while they suffered famine, poverty, and economic problems. Just because you have something to export doesn't mean that it translates into economic success. Just look at China whose economy has grown by leaps and bounds over the last 3 decades, and yet, huge portions of the country are still reminiscent of the Mao period (the size of the country, along with the size of the population should be considered). It takes a lot of time and focused investment to bring a nation out of the more primitive economic conditions, especially when the standards of living for the average person is taken into account.. along with it's place on the corruption index.

As for you thinking this was supposed to be a failed state, could you direct me to the posts which made that claim? I can't recall anyone doing so. Somehow I suspect this is simply you claiming that others have done that, so that you can assume a position of defending Ukraine. Just as the performance of the Russian and Ukrainian military operations has no bearing on the discussion of economic and social stability. It's irrelevant.. but you felt the need to assign four individual points to it.

There's always going to be some posters with exaggerated/extreme viewpoints. It's the nature of the internet. Just as the need to jump on absolutes as a way to frame an argument. All Ukrainians remaining is unrealistic. Just as all Ukrainians returning to Ukraine is unrealistic.

The reasons for Ukrainians to remain in the EU after the conflict are pretty damn obvious. Immigration policy restrictions for most European nations before the conflict made it difficult for migration from Ukraine, similar to the problems facing any Eastern European nations prior to joining the EU. So, the visa requirements being entirely waived is a major boost to anyone wanting to emigrate. The conditions of corruption within Ukrainian politics/authority/police will continue to exist after the war, and the EU is largely absent such an environment, which leads to the awareness that the EU will be far more fair, less discriminatory practices (especially for women, as Ukraine has a fairly "traditional" society), etc. And then, there's all the economic advantages of staying with a far higher earning potential, higher standards of living, and a longer average life expectancy.

You really should compare the life expectancy of Ukraine vs EU nations... It might shift your views somewhat. Although I doubt it.

Irrelevant. Also, terribly naïve. Will they be rebuilding the nation out of wood? Where do the resources needed come from? The infrastructure for mass production of building materials, and the machinery needed for construction? the monetary investments to support the workers, the government, etc while this is going on? Where does.. the list goes on and on. If you would be bothered to think about it.

Ukraine officially declared itself an independent country on 24 August 1991.. so it's hardly recent. And you seem to think people aren't aware of what Eastern European culture is like, both politically and socially. I've been to Ukraine before.. just as I've spent time in Russia. I'm well aware of the range of corruption that becomes established within society as a reflection of the corruption that exists within it's political system. Being a democracy doesn't guarantee anything.. as there's a wide range of approaches in how democracies operate, and whether the electorate has any real power/authority to enforce change.

Look, I get it. Ukraine was attacked which makes them the victim, and the victim is always blameless. That has translated into sainthood for Ukraine, with their past sins being whitewashed to make them more presentable to the Western populations. And you're bending over backwards to reinforce that whitewashing..