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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    No, I haven't said it doesn't prevent any cases whatsoever. My gripe is rather than admit that the vaccine is not as effective at preventing cases as war originally expected, we are led to believe that they are in fact working as originally intended because they are successful at reducing symptoms.

    That's a lie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    so the near global eradication of the variant it was designed to fight is a non prevention?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    That's a new argument I'll give you that!

    Certainly prepared to give it a spin. I'd agree the alpha variant is totally eradicated. At what point was the alpha variant eradicated?



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    taken off the WHO list early this year due to lack of detections during gene sequencing sampling

    and it's not an argument, it's science based fact



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Fair enough. It's a science based fact that the alpha variant is eradicated.

    If you're saying that the vaccine did what it was approved to do - prevent the alpha variant - and this has been a huge success given the alpha variant has been eradicated, presumably you are also saying that it was thus not specifically approved to reduce the symptoms of covid? The fact that it does is of course a positive, but those who granted approval had no data to base this on, and thus did not approve it formally?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,467 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    You conceded on the previous points.

    But even on this one, your "case counts" evidence which you compeltely, utterly and hilariously fail to understand is about cases not symptoms.

    By your own words, the vaccines were approved to prevent symptomatic cases (which is another misunderstanding on your side), but the evidence is that they do that as well, hence you're very wrong again.

    You must be getting jealous of the stopped clocks.

    Alpha was the first VOC, not the original virus the vaccines were based on (and the vaccines continue to work due to the stabilty of the spike protein they target).

    The original variant is also eradicated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    for someone so pedantic, you like twisting words to suit your argument.... so using my correct quote- "near eradication", yes I do think it was a great success and numerous scientific studies back this up along with the removal of the Alpha variant as a variant of concern from pretty much all health organisations as of early this year,

    addressing the legislation side, it wasn't a case of no data, it was a case of limited data to get it to phase 3 trials... when it hit phase 3 it hit all the benchmarks including required sample sizes for it to be allowed into mass production... the only thing that was missing was long term studies ,which most like to think are in depth, but usually are just a of " is x still alive and not developed any major issues since vaccination", taken at either 3 or 5 years.

    The vast majority of any issue actually show up during phase 3 trials...

    So yes, it was approved formally, minus a layer of safeguarding for obvious reasons.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    By your own words, the vaccines were approved to prevent symptomatic cases (which is another misunderstanding on your side), but the evidence is that they do that as well, hence you're very wrong again.

    The vaccines were approved to prevent covid-19, and by that it is meant to prevent cases of covid-19, not to prevent serious symptoms in covid-19.

    Sufficient data on its effectiveness or otherwise of preventing serious symptoms of covid simply wasn't available at time of approval, therefore it is total nonsense to claim they approved something on hope or expectation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Another brainless statement stole from twitter.


    Buzz, have you given up your claims that the vaccine is dangerous and makes people magnetic cause the cool kids aren't supporting that nonsense?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,467 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    You said symptoms, not cases, now you're caught in your own ridiculous bind 🤣

    Vast majority of cases post vaccine end up symptom-less.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Yes, I'm pedantic. I think people have the right to be pedantic when it comes to the regulation of medicines, particularly ones which are being considered as mandatory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Coordinated by who? Who was coordinated? Why?


    What has this to do with the safety of the vaccines?



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    but not so much when trying to skew someone else's argument in your favour?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Every positive covid case is also a case of vaccination failure according to the scientists at the EU

    Proposed definition for Confirmed Vaccination Failure with AZD1222: The occurrence of COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 in a person who is appropriately and fully vaccinated following an incubation period of ≥ 15 days following the second dose of the vaccine.

    https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/rmp-summary/vaxzevria-previously-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-epar-risk-management-plan_en.pdf

    Why are you ignoring the scientists' definition?



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    selective quoting


    Proposed definition for Confirmed Vaccination Failure with AZD1222: The occurrence of COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 in a person who is appropriately and fully vaccinated following an incubation period of ≥ 15 days following the second dose of the vaccine. A COVID-19 diagnosis is defined as: Virologically-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 (eg, RT-PCR) and at least 1 symptom of COVID-19 disease (eg, objective fever [defined as ≥ 37.8 °C], cough, shortness of breath, anosmia, or ageusia) or COVID-19 diagnosis stated/provided by the Physician


    so a failed PCR along with symptoms.... i.e. asymptomatic doesn't count...

    unfortunately you need to be infected with a virus, for your body to combat it, and yes, this would result in a positive test in some cases....

    if you're unhappy with the COVID vaccine, the measles vaccine will blow your mind as to how inefficient it is.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Fair enough, every symptomatic case of Covid is a case of vaccination failure irrespective of the severity of the symptoms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,050 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose




  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    No, obviously in the vaccinated. You can only have a case of vaccination failure in somebody has been vaccinated - in a person who is appropriately and fully vaccinated following an incubation period of ≥ 15 days following the second dose of the vaccine.

    I am partially vaccinated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    and that includes all the subsequent variants which the vaccine wasn't designed to fully tackle, even though the version it was designed to tackle has been pretty much eradicated... and you feel this is mis-information and there has been no reporting at all on the potential reduction in efficacy of the vaccine against the numerous variants?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    No I think the misinformation is that whilst the performance against preventing Covid has been poor, the vaccines are working as originally approved in failing to prevent Covid, but in reducing the severity of symptoms.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    so near eradication of the variant it was designed for is not prevention?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,050 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    To be pedantic, you didn't talk about vaccination failure. You said, "Every symptomatic case of Covid-19 is a vaccination failure." Not in the unvaccinated it isn't, which is where the great majority of cases is. And, of course, you have to separate 'vaccinated' from 'vaccinated and boosted' which is the recommendation by all the health authorities now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,050 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    The fact's are there, and they have all the warnings and side effects well pointed out.

    So I have no problem whatsoever with that.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I think the eradication of the variant it was designed for is prevention. Yes, I agree with you.

    And I would have absolutely no problem if the regulators said "The vaccines were designed and granted emergency approval to prevent a covid variant that is now eradicated. They have done that job successfully. But now the variant they were approved to prevent has been eradicated, the original emergency use approval is obsolete. We need to either to cancel it or update it to reflect that the approval is not to prevent Covid-19 but to reduce the severity of symptoms of Covid-19."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    I suppose in the big scheme of things if everything that was advertised as being water tight was scrutinized because they weren't 100% watertight or waterproof. Nothing would be approved if it wasn't working 100% as advertised.

    I hike a lot and I've read all the reviews on boots and raincoats and trousers there's always going to be a weak spot somewhere. So if I buy a pair of hiking boots I proof them myself with a product that's helps the boots stay breathable and the droplets run off.

    They work if you learn how to look after them. Look at Toyota the best built car's in the world, far from it I tell you, I bought one and it was definitely a Monday morning job. Everything but the engine and body work went wrong, it had a great figure and a lot of heart.

    Nothing that's produced is 100% effective no matter what they say. Buy a filleting knife and it has to be sharpened. Maybe I had a lightbulb moment, but I know now what the lads are saying.

    I see where they're coming from now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Page 208:

    Vaccines are safe and effective. Still no conspiracy.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Every single adult I know has had Covid, all of them symptomatic but thankfully with mild symptoms, and the overwhelming majority of the people I know are vaccinated, I would guess in excess of 95%. Every single adult I know says the same thing, that every single adult they know has had Covid, and the vast majority of them are vaccinated.

    This is largely only since Christmas, i.e Omicron, but at this stage of the pandemic in my experience people are more likely to have had covid than not had covid.

    With a 90% plus vaccination rate, this suggests to me that the vaccines have been poor at preventing Covid. I do of course accept this anecdotal, and maybe your experience is different and you know very few people who have had Covid, and in that case I completely understand if you think the vaccines are working great at preventing Covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    The conspiracy seems to be that someone (hometruths won't say who or why) coordinated a plot to make the EMA only approve the vaccines for one thing and one thing only and to lie and say that the vaccines were approved to do another thing that they actually did do.

    And there's the conspiracy that Scottish health officials (again, who? Why? Hometruths doesn't say) are covering up the fact that the vaccines are making people more likely to catch the virus after a few weeks. And this is an issue for some reason despite the fact that Hometruths et al are claiming that the virus isn't dangerous.


    They've given up all their previous claims because hometruths doesn't believe them and they want to pretend to be in agreement with each other.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Not following it too closely. It's Phishnet isn't it? These are posters just arguing nothing out of sheer spite at this stage.



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