Inheriting a challenge

Chris_5339762 · 25-04-2022 9:30pm #1

Ok, that title is probably a bit OTT, but my old parents in Galway have had an Eddi/Harvi system with a 3kW inverter and a 3.3kW (roughly) set of panels installed. It is very, very nice, and complements an old solar hot water system. It kind of all happened without all the thought that should go into it. Anyway, I have configured those two to work together with a bit of headspace allowed in temperature for the old hot water system to work. Seems ok, and the Eddi will put about 2kWh into the hot water daily. I have no idea the equivalent the old system puts in, but they are happy together and we end up with a 250l container of 60C water.

However the install has been a disaster. The installers were great, but the company (who were well reviewed) are not interested in trying to sort out the final configuration of the system and the extensive troubleshooting we need. They are just not answering calls anymore regardless of how much of the riot act they have been read.

I'm trying to troubleshoot a few issues myself and I can maybe solve a few of the minor ones. I'll try to keep to this thread. Here are two issues - I have others to come.

1) Occasionally the Eddi and the Harvi do not communicate properly, with the app and the Eddi saying 0kW from the panels, 0kW usage and 0kW import. This, I'm imagining, is simply the wireless connection between the Eddi/Harvi dieing temporarily, but it only seems to happen in the afternoon of hot days. At that point, I'm imagining everything gets imported. Can the Eddi/Harvi be connected by ethernet easily, or is it just wireless?

2) I've also occasionally seen the PV output drop to zero according to the Eddi, even when there is a blue sky. In that case, the Eddi says 0kW from the panels, say 1.4kW usage, and 1.4kW imported. Could that be a dodgy cable, or is it something more sinister?

Also 3) Often times the MyFusion app reported values bear absolutely no resemblance to those shown on the Eddi, even when a smoothing of data, or a five minute time average is assumed. MyFusion is often out by a factor of 2 or 3. The app says 160W current usage, for instance, and the Eddi says 800W. I don't know which to believe, if either, I'd say the 800W doesn't bear reality either as I know the oven usage shows up on neither, but thats another matter.

Any ideas? I'm sure this isn't the only question I'm going to ask.

the_amazing_raisin · 25-04-2022 10:15pm

Can't help with 3, but for 1, no there's no wired connection available on the Harvi

For 2, that does seem a bit strange. Does the inverter output show anything similar (even if it is miles off)? It would kind of help you narrow down if it's the Eddi or PV array at least

Chris_5339762 · 25-04-2022 10:19pm

Dang, thats a shame. Might have to get a bigger/better aerial for them.

I'll check the inverter at the weekend, of course its in a difficult to access part of the loft, and the Eddi is in the back of the hot press as close as possible to the thermostat... ugh....

the_amazing_raisin · 25-04-2022 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118976608#Comment_118976608

I've noticed my Harvi seems to randomly lose connection and it's right beside my Zappi. I guess it's just an interference thing

You could try using a different channel for the Eddi/Harvi

mp3guy · 25-04-2022 11:25pm

1) If you're having trouble with the Harvi, you should just run the two CTs from the Eddi directly instead, that'll solve that issue. Up into the attic and then across and down maybe. A job but completely feasible.

2) This will be solved by the solution to 1. Unless the voltage is very high when it happens. Assuming the inverter lists no faults.

3) Lag, they don't update instantly. And if Eddi is getting flakey signals you can't rely on what it's saying.

This is the solution, you might not like it, but it will solve it.

Chris_5339762 · 26-04-2022 10:37am

Hmmm, interesting. I might try to do that. It'll be tough in terms of actually wiring the CTs through to the Eddi (its actually a floor above the Harvi and across two rooms) but if that worked it would be nice. I'll try to check the inverter at the weekend even though that involves a lot of crawling.

For (3) I'm not convinced (yet!) that its just lag. It often misses a kettle being on, and frequently under-reports whats on the Eddi by 2 - 3x, even when power usage is stable in the evening with just freezers, TV, computers on. I'll keep an eye. But no, I don't actually trust the readings reported by Eddi and the app at all anymore. Which worries me.... if Eddi is correctly reporting the PV power generation, and underestimating the load for whatever reason, will it unknowingly pull the balance of power from the grid to heat the hot water because it thinks there is an excess available, when in reality there isn't?

Edit: I might try changing the channels too, see if that helps. Not QUITE confident enough with the system yet, as we don't have the installers to rely on to fix things if we buggered it up, because they have gone completely non contact.

Chris_5339762 · 27-04-2022 10:37am

Ugh. The CT out in the meter box was pointing in the wrong direction and was only around one cable, not the two we have due to an old meter system.

They also didn't wire the Eddi up to the thermostat correctly.

And now again Harvi is not communicating with Eddi properly, so all that nice free PV is going to waste.

mp3guy · 27-04-2022 11:14am

Cowboys Ted - A lot of them out there.

bullit_dodger · 27-04-2022 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982832#Comment_118982832

Hard to know, as we're sort of visualizing your wiring, but sometimes the CT clamps only deliberately go around 1x wire usually the live. Can't speak to the Harvi though. If you do both wires the flux fields can cancel each other out (as I understand it)

mp3guy · 27-04-2022 11:24am

Yeah some photos would really help.

championc · 27-04-2022 11:26am

Firstly, everything points to your MyEnergi products being the issue, so you might just be better talking to them directly.

Secondly, CT Clamps always connect around the LIVE cable ONLY. And that Live cable will be a AC live. It does not read any DC

Thirdly, the MyEnergi CT clamps have an arrow on the back side printed into them. This always points towards the main fuseboard. So the grid one will point inwards and the Inverter AC will point outwards.

Lastly, a Harvi is for transmitting the CT readings wirelessly via radio signals. This is low power but long range. But ideally, if it can be wired, it should be wired. However, is the Harvi being used for the grid or the inverter connection ? The inverter one could be monitored from down at the fuseboard end or at the inverter.

One last thing - I had some strange readings from my Harvi when I left the CT Clamp with the 5m of cable bundled up. I chopped off all but about 0.5m and that resolved the issue.

Chris_5339762 · 27-04-2022 2:44pm

Thanks a mil. The CT clamp is around two cables at the moment. Both are positive and the arrow points to the fuseboxes. We have an odd setup where the meter used to be split on our side of the ESB box, with two seperate meters and two seperate fuseboxes for upstairs and downstairs. Both were combined (bodged together) years ago to power the house as one unit with one new meter but power does flow through both sets of cables. Therefore, our CT clamp is around the positives coming out of both meters, so it should, in theory, read the combined power from the two of them - which would be the total power coming into the house. Fixing the meters is on the cards, someday. I'll hold back on pictures of that setup for now on the offchance the company could see this.

We won't mention that the install put the CT in the wrong way, and on the wrong cable altogether.

I don't know the system well enough to know what the Harvi is actually doing, but I'll check.

Dropped signal all day long today as well. Really frustrating.

championc · 27-04-2022 3:26pm

First of all, can the CT around the two cables just simply go to the other side of that breaker, over to the Grid side ? It removes any ambiguity.

Secondly, does the inverter not feed into it's own MCB in that same fuseboard ?

Chris_5339762 · 27-04-2022 8:58pm

We'll see if we can do that. Oddly enough I don't think its catching the oven being on as it stands.

I'm away tomorrow but back Friday and will have a look at the inverter then. Fingers crossed theres something obvious wrong with it!!!

In the end the signal was dropped all day but oddly enough came back at roughly the same power level that it went off at, which strikes me as a coincidence. Can the inverter get too hot and just stop working? Its in the attic but it does get hot up there.

graememk · 27-04-2022 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118985627#Comment_118985627

Yes, another thing that can happen is the grid voltage gets too high too and the inverter will shut off

Chris_5339762 · 01-05-2022 10:31am

So we've had an electrician look at the meter, and he has disconnected the second redundant meter completely so only one cable flows "in" to the fuseboards. He then proceeded to put the CT on the wrong way around so we have fixed that.

Trouble is, things are now worse.

1) There is still the problem of everything dropping to 0 on various days... seemingly sunny ones. Both the app and the Eddi show 0 0 0 for everything as below. It seems to occur roughly from 9 to 5 which tells me it is a heat related issue somewhere. The inverter has two lights on it during this time - the wifi light is off. When the system is "working" (I use that phrase lightly) the wifi light is flickering as you'd expect for wi-fi. Is it actually a connection problem between the inverter and whatever it communicates with? I don't know. I don't know what is the master system that sends data to the internet. I THINK it is the inverter, but then regardless of what eddi shows, the app will still show imported electricity usage even during this time where connection is (seemingly) lost. So something is exporting data to the internet.

sunnyday.png

2) After the electrician came, the Eddi is now not reading anything from the CT - which means it does not know we have an excess so won't try to heat hot water. (This is aside from the fact that the app correctly reads electricity usage now). We haven't managed to connect the Eddi directly to the CT yet... I'm reluctant to go digging too much until the installers look at the system again. But of course I don't know if/when they are going to come.

Its just been an absolute disaster start to finish. Seven weeks now. I KNOW the system is good... when it works. But it just isn't working and god knows what stress adding a battery will give us. It is now to the point of causing arguments in the house as three people - two elderly - try to understand whats going on with a company who, although very good initially, now just simply will not return any phonecalls.

IMG_20220501_102613.jpg

I'll keep you guys updated.

Edit: The Energy Flow on the app/website is working correctly and displaying everything (import/useage/PV) but the Eddi shows PV/usage only - and those numbers are always the same - but no import.

Chris_5339762 · 01-05-2022 10:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984358#Comment_118984358

First thing is done now, there is only one cable going into the house.

The second one - yup I'm fairly sure the inverter comes into the fuseboard. I don't know 100% as I only saw the installation after it was all done and I've really no experience with electrical stuff like this.

Chris_5339762 · 17-05-2022 4:34pm

Not sure anyone is following this still, but we have some resolutions.

1) The previous electrician pulled a wire by accident resulting in one of the CTs not being plugged in correctly. To be honest we should have seen this.

2) The current electrician thinkg that the sudden drop to 0 of the PV is actually caused by the voltage and/or current being too high on the ESB end and spiking. It trips out when it thinks its too high, and then comes back on again later in the day. He's upped the threshold where it triggers but it is still happening occasionally. With us out in the country in Galway and several milking machines on the lines I can see where that might happen. On the down side, ESB really aren't interested in doing anything about it. That might have to be pursued.

championc · 17-05-2022 7:10pm

So your Eddi is reading the grid and solar correctly now ?

Chris_5339762 · 17-05-2022 8:34pm

Yes, it is. That was due to a loose connection where one of the CTs comes in, apparently.

The remaining problem is that the PV output drops to 0 somewhat randomly, usually on nice days. It just drops to 0, no PV is generated at all, the Eddi reads 0 for generated. The electrician suspects this is surges coming from the ESB side... but there hasn't been any damage that I'm aware of to any electrical equipment over the years so I dunno.

Its better than it was, but not QUITE there yet.

mp3guy · 17-05-2022 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119076540#Comment_119076540

For 2) I had the same issue. Rural location, dedicated transformer super close to my house, nominal supply voltage 245V. My inverters are on a long (60m) run from my consumer unit, so they have to push up their own voltage higher than 253V to export greater than 3kW due to the drop (despite being 16sqmm cable). I did get the ESB to come out and setup a voltage recorder for 10 days. They then reviewed the data (and gave me a copy) and sure enough, when my inverters were hitting 253V, their recorder (and the house) was only measuring 245V. Then, when I upped the limit on my inverters (under the suggestion of the ESB technician himself), they'd read 255, 256 and my house sockets via multimeter wouldn't read higher than 250V. I was told unless the ESB record a sustained voltage higher than 253V for more than 5 minutes, they won't address it.

It sounds like you might have this problem? Can you tell me what the voltage is on the Eddi when you're exporting on a Sunny day? Or what is it during the night when the house isn't pulling any serious load? The least the ESB should do is install a recorder for you. It is dangerous if constantly above the limit and will wear down appliances quicker.

Chris_5339762 · 18-05-2022 10:32am

I'll check that out, and see what can be done. Thanks.

In the app, the AC Output of the Inverter is 251.8V at the moment. Thats all I have for now!

mp3guy · 18-05-2022 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079516#Comment_119079516

Yep, that's the smoking gun. Only 2.2V away from tripping.

championc · 18-05-2022 11:25am

I wonder could you therefore just change the country code in the setup, to pick a country where the upper accepted voltage is higher. Would the general EN50549 one do ?

Chris_5339762 · 18-05-2022 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079630#Comment_119079630

Very good to know, thanks. I THINK the electrician upped it a little on the Inverter end and so far it hasn't happened as much. When it does happen, will the inverter un-trip itself immediately when the voltage drops to safe levels, or does it wait a certain period before trying?

My dad, ever resourceful in his older age, is going to attach a multimeter to a plug (he has electrical training) and get a security camera with the time visible recording it for a day or so. That way, if it does trip out, he can reverse back and see what voltage that occurs at.

Chris_5339762 · 27-05-2022 12:08pm

Been ok for a few days but now the voltage issue is happening again. Its really annoying.

upload.png

A nice day of lovely weather and what do you know... PV power drops out at about 9am and we have to import everything.

Does anyone know when the inverter will start working again? Does the voltage have to drop to a certain value before it does, or can we reset the inverter to make it try again?

Our "stable" voltage during the day is about 252V at the ESB end, which is outrageous.

mp3guy · 27-05-2022 12:15pm

The inverter will restart once the voltage goes below 253V for a sustained period. It takes time for it to reset.

Have you got the ESB on the hook for a call out yet? You ought to.

If you want to stop it tripping out you can limit the inverter's export to as low as you want, should drastically reduce the amount of times it trips.

Chris_5339762 · 03-06-2022 12:22pm

sigh

Three of the last four days now we have had overvoltage tripping that takes the PV offline for hours at a time. Sat/Sun aren't so bad as people are home and are loading the system, thereby reducing the voltage.

ESB were rung, and said our voltages are between about 240 and 253V. They don't need to monitor it, as they are happy with our own monitoring. They said they can't do anything unless the installers call them, and it turns out the installers had never sent in the forms to ESB saying that solar was put in. So it was news to them!

The installers said they won't call ESB under GDPR. Nonsense of the highest order. They promised a callback first thing this morning, nothing. Looks like this is going to drag to Tuesday after the bank holiday. Its just going on and on. Has anyone had any luck getting these voltage issues sorted?

If the company won't budge I'm tempted to just go up to the inverter and raise the cutoff voltage myself.

mp3guy · 03-06-2022 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119153174#Comment_119153174

In fairness it isn't your installer's responsibility, but the ESB are bullshitting you saying they can't do anything. Our local ESB office were happy to send out an engineer to monitor it.

You can either set the export limit to something lower like 1kW or 0kW, or increase the cutoff voltage yourself.

championc · 03-06-2022 4:33pm

GDPR is only an issue when you don't give the consent. So send them an email, in sort of legal wording, absolutely providing consent to them to allow for your details to be used in connection with the discussions with ESB Networks.

But you'll also have to address the missing NC6 Form, since that will be the trigger for Feed In Tariff payments (especially if you have a Day / Night meter.

Chris_5339762 · 12-06-2022 10:41am

Update: ESB on the case now, they are coming in 10 working days (FFS) to install something to do precisely the same monitoring that we've been doing ourselves. Its been very unsatisfactory in the last week, with most days the solar voltage tripping at about 9am and not coming on until 5pm. Incredibly frustrating during the summer!

Voltage (according to just the app) is 252V this morning, and anecdotally that is about 1 - 2V less than that recorded by a meter.

championc · 12-06-2022 1:05pm

Well done for sticking with it. In one sense, you didn't have an option I suppose.

I wonder how many other systems, installed in attics or whatever, have similar issues and owners have no clue, as owners pay no attention to apps or Data.

Chris_5339762 · 12-06-2022 1:17pm

I'd say there are a few - we do try to optimise it as much as possible (when its on) and ESBs voltages seem all over the place.

My worry is that another poster said ESB aren't interested unless your voltage is over 255V, in which case they will say "its within spec so we won't do anything", and the solar installers will say "its outside of our spec and its ESBs problem". In which case I'll be looking to raise the cutoff voltage and be done with it!

Very frustrating overall though as once things are installed, the installers really aren't interested in difficult problems like ours.

mp3guy · 12-06-2022 1:58pm

Market is flooded with fire and forget cowboys. Individuals who know they can get away with knowing nothing about the tech they're installing once they can wire it up. Buyer beware

bullit_dodger · 12-06-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119191672#Comment_119191672

I think the Service agreement that ESB state is that they will supply voltage at 230v and then +/- 10% of that, so in theory as long as they are within 208v - 252v they are fulfulling their end of the deal so to speak. That said, I think they would be a bit lame if they turned around and gave....

"ohh your at 251v , nothing for us to do here"

To be fair to installers though, while they might understand the landscape better than your average Joe Public, it really isn't their problem. It's a supply issue from ESB. Although likewise it's bad form in my opinion to shrug shoulders and go "meh", at the least they should highlight the process clear and precisely to give the homeowner a fighting chance in what to do.

championc · 12-06-2022 7:41pm

Personally, I'd have up'd the voltage, but it wouldn't ultimately solve the problem. It's always possible that some local fecker is exporting loads and has installed solar and is un-registeted

Ubbquittious · 12-06-2022 10:19pm

If your voltage is too high you'll have to install a hot tub with a few immersion heaters to bring it back down.

mp3guy · 13-06-2022 9:07am

OP the engineer may be kind enough to share the data with you the day they come to collect it, have a USB handy.

Chris_5339762 · 28-06-2022 12:17pm

Update: Still waiting for ESB to install the voltmeter. They initially said they'd do it within 10 days. 10 days passed and became 14, so we rang them. "Oh we'll get back to you".

They did a day later and apparently there is only one meter in the area so they'd get back to us again.

They haven't as yet. 30 minutes on hold to talk to them every time.

TerraSolis · 28-06-2022 4:16pm

Hi Chris,

The new grid protection settings in Ireland allows you to relax the over-voltage protection on your inverter to 269V. This sounds like it would resolve your issue.

If you don't have access to your Inverter's grid parameters, have your installer adjust them. They may be able to do so remotely.

Chris_5339762 · 28-06-2022 4:50pm

Thanks. I'll do that. Didn't know there was an upper limit set in whatever legislation there is.

We downloaded instructions on how to do it, looks simple enough but I've been asked by the "powers that be" not to do it until we have the grant in. I think its probably set to about 253V as it stands, I'll nudge it up to about 254V. If the installers do it that would be better, as at least if something goes bang, we have comeback.

That said we'd still like the ESB to do something as we are on the upper end of spec. In hindsight halogen bulbs, a heater and some LEDs have all stopped working recently and we are putting 2 and 2 together.

TerraSolis · 28-06-2022 6:31pm

You can confidently push it right up to the 269 limit if you'd like - the inverters can handle it (& it's technically what ESBN want).

The new settings are listed on the NC6 form on ESBN's website if you'd like to consult.

But yes - best to get the voltage issue sorted in any case.

mp3guy · 28-06-2022 11:15pm

Wow, 269V! That's very high.

bullit_dodger · 29-06-2022 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119264547#Comment_119264547

hmmmm....I dunno if that's wise. While the inverter can probably handle it (not sure and of course it would be dependent on the inverter), the official SLA from ESB is that they'll supply electricity at 230v +/- 10%, so that's where the 253V comes in.

If you come along and start exporting at 254v, you might be ok, but the guys upstream from you might not. Your neighbor who now maybe taking your 254v or the local distribution box.

I'd be surprised of course if 1 single volt would cause issue, the margin would never be that tight, but if you were to set that to 269V then.....yeah, I think that could be Bad-Mojo(tm).

I wouldn't push that more than 2-3v without getting someone to sign off on that.

mp3guy · 29-06-2022 10:37am

It does seem to be all it lists in the NC6 documentation. But on the NC7 form it mentions both 269V and also 258V as over-voltage sustained over 10 minutes, which seems more reasonable.

TerraSolis · 29-06-2022 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265504#Comment_119265504

Indeed it is very high - however it's actually the precise setting that ESBN want for all new micro/mini gen connections. Rather than it being "the max you can get away with" it's more so the case that ESBN want it to be the voltage "up to which your inverter can stay connected to grid without tripping". The idea being, if a voltage issue occurs on a larger network level, it's much more difficult for ESBN to wrestle it back into line if there's a load of gen connecting and disconnecting and confusing the overall state of the network. If you want to connect new gen it has to be set 269V and no less.

Chris_5339762 · 29-06-2022 10:45am

Interesting. Not sure though if I'd be confident enough in making a dramatic change from what it is set to at the moment (say 253V) right up to 269V. Would rather the installers do that one, at least then there is comeback and I'm certainly not changing it until we get the grant, as if something happens they will then take the hump and not co-operate!!

I'd certainly be comfortable nudging it up one or two volts to 254 or 255V so that the trip-level is high enough that it doesn't cause us issues. But right up to 269V is going to a level that I'm not confident enough in my own knowledge to do. For instance there are a few milking machines on our network (reasonably rural) and god knows what they do the voltage when they turn on, or more importantly, when they turn off.

bullit_dodger · 29-06-2022 10:52am

Yeah, that sounds about right mp3guy. it would be badly designed equipment if they had such tight margins of 1-2 volts, but yeah, 15+V on the other hand .... well that is "getting out there" :-) Bearing in mind that it's not just ESB side, but your neighbor might be consuming your 260v (or whatever) when you knock that up and you're exporting your excess. So, every piece of equipment in their house would need to be able to take voltage whatever you are exporting.

Couple of volts can't see an issue, but if your going more than as you say 258v......you might be doing your neighbor and ESB a disservice.

TerraSolis · 29-06-2022 10:58am

Yeah sorry, I should clarify, I'm not trying to instruct you to raise it yourself! Just explaining the new grid settings. They've only just come into effect too - so it'd be expected that your parents' system was connected under the old settings.

I think you're on the right track RE nudge it a couple of volts to stop it messing around and get ESBN to look into the voltage issue :)

Chris_5339762 · 09-07-2022 10:42am

Update: As I mentioned before the ESB installed the voltage monitor last week. The installer was blaming ESB for a voltage that was too high, the ESB put this on for a week to check. I'm happy enough to up the voltage trip value on the inverter by a few volts but have been asked not to by family here until the installer sort the grant out. That is currently waiting on the BER person and he has sat on the report for 3 weeks without sending it into the installer.

The ESB monitor was supposed to come off yesterday and no-one showed up. So now that'll be there until at least Monday. More delays.

In the meantime on a lovely sunny day yesterday the inverter tripped out from 10am to 5pm.

From my own measurements, the voltage will likely be (just) in spec, at about 251V.

championc · 09-07-2022 10:58am

Well thankfully it tripped while the ESB's device was attached. You have a very specific time tag for them to correlate with their readings.

It's certainly the best option to have ESB see the voltages so that they can correctly plan local upgrades, or maybe look into a neighbor who may be exporting badly.

In all honesty, the family would never know if you upp'd the voltage. Right now, or a few months ago, they would have been in blissful ignorance of what the voltage level was

Inheriting a challenge

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