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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Posts: 25,917 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd like if Europe would step up but it won't be happening any time soon. Entire political systems have been shown to be compromised. The weak-willed, lily-livered politicians are great while they have NATO to take care of everything. Yes, ideally the yanks would **** off but without them "rehabilitating" Germany where would Europe be now? If NATO stopped existing in the 90s where would be be? The Eastern Europeans and Baltics are the ones who have history and know all about Russia first hand, I'm sure they're pretty glad of the US influence right now. Finland and Sweden are looking at what is happening and also listening to their population who seem to be happier to join NATO now. Germany meanwhile sandbagged even as their population seemed to be ready for more.

    Yes, ideally the yanks would have no influence beyond their own shores but in the real world thank **** the Ukrainians hung on long enough to get the yanks onside. Because even the yanks have a cost/benefit to do and had Ukraine just slipped away then what, they're going to step up for Moldova in a few years? Georgia whenever they go in again? Nah, just more Russian creep towards the Balkans and Turkey while the Germans shrug and say everything is fine. And you know this, this war isn't the end. Any outcome relying on Russia's word is worthless to anyone other than Russia.



  • Posts: 25,917 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is it. Also the Germans had a historical culture/society to revert to. And some Asian culture is quite different from most of the world when it comes to top-down stuff. Both were comprehensively defeated and given a pretty simple choice. And guess what, they behaved properly for a while and reaped the benefits. What does Russia have to switch to? Go back to famines and food shortages? Keep the paranoia they had since the day of the Czars? It's a criminal enterprise that people hoped might chill the **** out and once welcomed into the fold would benefit from its massive natural resources and geography. They didn't. And anyone pointing it out was a US oil shill or CIA shill.



  • Posts: 7,946 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,350 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    That cannot happen with Russia. The nukes will prevent it. In any case (IMO) it is probably more likely to eventually blow into multiple bits, than hang together as it is today for a dose of "humiliation". Some of those bits could be very poor & weak, but could have control of a load of nasties, nukes, biological weapons, chemical weapons you name it. A gaggle of new Pakistans maybe?? That is not a great/hopeful picture.

    The US was very worried about the doomsday weapons of the Soviet Union and put a huge effort into containing them, making sure they didn't proliferate and the weapons know-how remained relatively contained too (keeping the weaponeers/scientists etc. paid and in jobs).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Not particularly.

    Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan suffered total defeat and occupation. Russia will not. That is a point of difference.

    But the overall point is that countries that had odious regimes can be turned into countries that make a positive contribution to human existence on this planet. They just need help and incentives.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,843 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Orban well latched onto the EU tit

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/16/hungary-sanctions-russian-oil-embargo-eu

    whilst having no qualms about biting the nipple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,350 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I hope he gets nothing. It's disgusting really. Would like to see the other countries give up on Hungary, try to get Poland on side to strip their voting rights and then they can be ignored, and the new sanctions "packages" can go through.

    The veto on such matters is a curse on the EU also. It is becoming more unsustainable as EU grows in size, and also the environment surrounding the EU members in the wider world seems to get more hostile each year, and needs agile decisions at that level.

    It's not the 90s or 00s any more, that is for sure.



  • Posts: 7,946 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But without the utter failure of the regime what's the impetus for change... answer, there isn't. The reason the USSR changed so much for a period of time, was because the USSR was defeated and humiliated, just not utterly. Anything else will be a half baked reaction.

    Do I think Russia will be humiliated... I wouldn't allow them back into the civilised world until they denuke... same as NK. If they don't then... leave them stew.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,162 ✭✭✭✭briany


    We cannot get back into the weeds of equivocation, here. Russia behave far worse than the USA do, and Eastern Europe's aversion to coming back under the Russian sphere of influence should be taken as testament to this fact. I'll take the U.S. helping keep that at bay all day long even if they're doing other things I don't agree with, like propping up Saudi Arabia or the subjugation of Palestinians. The U.S.'s hegemony is vastly better to be under than the current alternatives on offer. China and Russia can F off away with themselves. The amount of insidious influence they already have in the West is bad enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,418 ✭✭✭Field east


    Any country can be defeated and not - in this day and age- necessarily by conventional war as is going on in Ukraine at the moment

    . A defeated country, IMO

    , is one that has reduced , zero international influence;

    , not powerful enough to invade another country;,

    has a very weakened economy, ;

    most/ all countries carry’s out little or no business with it,

    little or no social interaction

    , international flights to and from it kept to a minimum,

    membership of all international , including political, security and sports org cancelled,

    etc, etc, etc, etc.

    SO, YOUDO NOT NEED TANKS/ CONVENTIONAL WAR to achieve the above. Relevant sanctions are the new suite of weapons.

    it may take a little longer to achieve one’s aims but there would be little or no deaths, reduced cost of this approach in certain areas eg refugees, concentration of human and other resources more appropriately targeted ie no refugee problem to contend with, no war to fund and all the Human Resources caught up in it, etc

    so IMO Russia CAN be defeated



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    The days of occupation is over realistically but what will happen to Russia will be far worse complete isolation from the rest of the world and hatred for there people.


    And tbh it's well deserved



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Even hardcore pro-Russian military bloggers losing patience and demanding answers regarding their military, especially the river crossing disasters (NYT article linked in the tweet)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,048 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I think all the gas will mean they won’t be completely isolated for the next few decades anyway. It’s just too much of a vital resource.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    The yanks are far better and far more reasonable than alternatives like Russia and china I'm glad they are the world power and not vice versa because we would be far worse off for it.


    As for Europe stepping up and militarizing not likely there is no patriotism towards Europe by the nations under the flag if it stopped being a benefit most nations would leave it. Like it or lump it the yanks are the best we ve got in terms of world order.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,162 ✭✭✭✭briany




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,836 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    50224444-C13C-4271-A0A3-915107F1C1DC.jpeg

    Like a really sh1t Avengers…



  • Posts: 7,946 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,509 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Hitler never wanted war with the west and made many peace overtures to them.The fact of the matter is it was Britain and France who declared war on Germany.

    You could state that Germany declared war on the United States,but that was just making it official as the United States was de facto at war with Germany long before Hitler's declaration.

    Britain was especially pro Soviet Union even to the point of declaring war on little Finland and even forcing them to pay reparations to the Soviet Union as a condition for a peace agreement....pay hundreds of millions of dollars for the 'crime' of trying to recover their national territory no less!.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,836 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    If anything I would say the Sony Spiderverse…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    The problem Ukraine will have even if they managed to kick Russia all the way out is they need peace with Russia. If Russia don't come around to some sort of peace talks etc. with Ukraine there won't be much international investment of foreign companies going into Ukraine and setting up shop. All Russia has to keep on doing is say lobbying in 2 or 3 cruise missiles or rockets every day at specific targets. Say for example if Apple or the likes set up a massive industrial complex and said would hire a few thousand Ukrainians and pumped say a billion into this being constructed and then near opening day a Russian cruise missile or a few Russian missiles slam into it and destroy it and same happens on another international company who invested after Russia was fully kicked out. No other foreign companies would invest in Ukraine that way so its a massive deal for Ukraine to eventually come to some sort of peace with Russia as the way I look at it Russia are fucked for probably 20 years after this so if there being isolated and no foreign investment allowed etc into there they might say **** it let's keep this up against Ukraine, fair enough they might have no troops left in Ukraine but if there planes and cruise missiles etc. can still lob stuff hundreds of miles inside Russia Ukraine will not ever be able to properly rebuild over this and foreign companies will not invest there for the same reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    The Ukrainians never stop impressing me. They are cleaning up and rebuilding almost the second they get into any of their reclaimed territory.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Isn't it weird that one nation can veto another couple of dozen nations foreign policy decisions? I wonder what could cause such a rum state of affairs?


    Oh wait....its the EU that causes it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Poland is in the east...and yes it was attacked by the Soviet Union as well.

    Thanks for reminding me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,514 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Russian media has gone very quiet on the "special operation" though. If I was a Russian, I'd be more than suspicious of why the Kremlin press has gone quiet on the supposed military successes and is barely reporting anything from the front.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Russian people must surely be wondering why after near 3 months that they have not taken Luhansk and Donetsk. And especially why they still haven't taken Mariupol.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick



    When you say Russian "people", if you mean civilians then they are kept in the dark about everything that's not going well and fed a load of lies. Those in the know, such as the rich, Putin's cronies, etc, would likely be fed some more clever reasoning, such as "It's all part of the strategy".

    Eventually it's all going to come tumbling down like a stack of cards. What does Putin plan to do when that happens? That is the question.



This discussion has been closed.
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