How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

can i ask why Unionists should get any kind of special treatment? When it arrives, the UI will already have many factions struggling to fit together, as EVERYONE makes compromises to make sure EVERYONE ELSE is happy. Surely unionism should also compromise? Why should anyone put out the red carpet just for Unionists and help them integrate? shouldn't everyone be helpded to integrate?

I know loads of people (myself included) who avoid Ireland rugby matches due to the roi trappings. I also know many grammar school rugger boys who put up with trappings because the want to support their national team. One told me recently one of his tactics is to ensure he is already standing before the anthem comes on so as he does not need to show respect by standing up when it starts.

believe it or not, on some occasions in the past when a lot of ulster boys have been playing I have say down with the intention of trying to support Ireland but by the time the anthem is played and the old roi trappings are over my allegiance has switched to the other team. Its really quite sad that Ireland rugby (and NI football) masters don’t have the balls to deal with it.

that said, my question was would you feel it would be a good idea to consider changing the anthem in any future all Ireland? But I don’t really expect you to ever answer a question

downcow's friends to the rescue again...weighing in with...surprise surprise, downcow's opinion!

Nearly as good as the findings of the fluffy marketing company posted earlier.

I do actually know myself francie. I’m not just a friend.

but what about you addressing my question to you for the third time?

My views on anthem change in a UI have been expressed many times downcow.

Anthems or flags hold no value to me personally.

The flag and anthem would represent Ireland. As the rugby team represents Ireland we need a flag that all irish people are happy with. Same goes if there is a UI. That is why i agree it is important to listen to unionists and not just say the current flag represents you so like it or lump it. But i wonder if we do come up with a new flag and anthem will it soon be disliked by the same people who dislike the current one as it infers Irish unity which is the real thing they dislike.

Yes alot of people live in Ireland that are not from Ireland (foreigners) Presumably they would support the team that represents where they're from but a rugby fan from Ireland would support Ireland whether a unionist or not so their voice on a flag and anthem would have to be heard. A foreigner of Ireland would not care as the team does not represent them.

There is no dissention in rugby about the anthems or the flag of the country for which they play and support.

Fully and happily integrated.

The model that rugby presents rankles the belligerent because they know what it means. Moderate Unionism has zero to no issues.

Currently the official flag and anthem of roi is the tricolour and SS. Currently the official flag and anthem of NI is GSTQ & Union flag.

is that the starting point? Is it roi absorbing ni or is it the to areas uniting?

there seems to be many assuming a different starting point ie that the roi stuff is the starting point.

of course francie, on the other hand, says he doesn’t mind if gstq and Uj were settled on as none of them matter to him.

Well the Tricolor is the official flag of the ROI, but as discussed before here, it is flag that originates from 1840's that was made to represent all the people of Ireland long before the state existed. It is argued by some that it is representative of all the people of Ireland today but that is a bit ideological when some people here just see it as representing the state. The union Jack would not be suitable as a flag for rugby either for obvious reasons. The union jack represents all of the UK (the nation of nations) it actually has all the home nations flag including Ireland's superimposed on to it. I would have no problem with them coming up with a new all Ireland flag like the original intention of the tricolor. But will it end the same way as the tricolor. Ie some here saying it does not represent them as it has become associated with irish state.

It is like your definition of being Irish is just being from the state and not Ireland. If we did come up with a new all Ireland flag and then the Irish state adopted this flag you and staunch unionists would suddenly dump the flag. The sad thing is the people objecting to the tricolor will always find problem with a flag that represents all of Ireland as that is there real problem.

Nope. A federated state, like Belgium or USA or many other countries, the international border on this island would become an internal border. A wide range of options for federal and local level autonomies.

That is not the starting point, because it's wrong. The union flag is the official flag of the UK. As we've pointed out before, NI doesn't have an official flag.

You not liking the answer given is NOT the same thing as not answering the question.

The union flag is the flag of the UK. Any British citizen can fly the union flag, but it's not the flag of any particular constituent part of the UK, or any particular place within the territory of the UK.

Back in the day, the old Stormont administration adopted a flag, which was a St George's Cross defaced with a six-pointed star bearing a red hand, on which was surmounted a St Edward's crown. (This flag was issued, ironically, by the College of Arms in Dublin in 1924.) Although officially this was the flag of the parliament of NI, it functioned in practice as the flag of NI. You still see it used privately quite a bit, but it lost its official status when the old Stormont administration was dissolved; now it's just a popular decoration associated with a particular political viewpoint. Since 1973 there has been no flag with any official status to represent NI or its political institutions. None of the various Stormont administrations which have come (and mostly gone) since 1972 adopted a flag for NI (or for themselves) and Westminster has never adopted a flag for NI.

The NI Assembly has a badge - a stylised fan-shaped wreath of six flax flowers - which is the equivalent of the portcullis badge used by the House of Commons or the crowned saltire used by the Scottish Parliament. And I think the Assembly itself flies a flag on sitting days which is basically a banner of that badge - a blue flax wreath on a white background. But that hasn't been taken up by anybody as a flag generally representative of NI, and certainly hasn't been officially adopted as such.

(Irrelevant meandering: this business of having a plethora of different flags, badges and banners with different official significance is a very British thing. The Royal Navy, for example, doesn't fly the union flag, except as a jack when its vessels are moored. RN vessels are formally identified by the White Ensign, vessels of the RN Volunteer Reserve by the Blue Ensign, vessels of the merchant navy by the red ensign. The monarch has her own flag which is completely different from the union flag - it's a banner of her arms. She has a different flag that she uses in Scotland.

And this plethora of flags cascades all the way down through the UK's constituent parts, and its overseas territories. Back in the day, NI didn't just have the flag of the parliament of NI; the Governor of NI had his own flag, which was a defaced version of the union flag. The PSNI has its own flag, as did the RUC before it. Pre-1973 the government, as distinct from the parliament, of NI had its own flag. Etc, etc. This profusion of flags contrasts with the sterling simplicity of French republicanism, where the same tricolour is use for all purposes by all levels of government throughout France and all French territories.)

Why not?

There will be federal oversight of the two entities, what is the problem? And what is the problem with special treatment for recognising the British identity and the 100-year history of the Northern state?

If you have a problem with special treatment for unionists in a united Ireland, then you have a problem with the GFA which gave special treatment for nationalists in Northern Ireland. My solution gives that without taking away from the perfectly working state that we have down here.

The question was Crystal clear.

would you support developing a more inclusive anthem in any future UI?

you just give us your personal feelings towards anthems which was irrelevant to the question