How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

You just cannot do it.

What happened in NI was a response to what Unionism did.

I accept that ALL participants in the conflict/war that behaviour provoked did the wrong thing, that does not make the statement I made wrong downcow.

Your community ran a sectarian bigoted statelet for nearly 80 years which had all the classic elements of dictatorships. No equal votes, no parity of esteem, gerrymandering, sectarian housing and education etc etc

That is YOUR history and you need to own it without blaming others for it.

You might want to do a wee bit of self reflection.

francie said “from a community that has a history of this suprematist behaviour and denial of a whole range of rights. Own it Downcow…” and I respond and you feel the need to have a go at me only. Enlightening!

You cannot see what you are doing even.

You need to accept the blame without equivocating.

What happened on this island happened because of a partition that was wholly wrong (whosoever accepted it) and primarily because once partition happened Unionists with the help of the British created a sectarian bigoted statelet principally designed to subjugate.

It was all wrong (I have always said this) from the get go. And Unionists are STILL trying to subjugate through sheer undemocratic belligerence.

The IRA campaign did not take place in a vacuum and no amount of foot stamping will make it so.

If you can't be arsed plowing through all of this, there's a question at the bottom for unionist posters which about covers it.

We are in the position we are in now because of unionist stupidity/bad faith, firstly 100 years ago when they chose apartheid for their neighbours which guaranteed a revolt against the status quo never mind a UI campaign, and latterly over Brexit. Specifically, the DUP's willingness to trust Boris Johnson and conspire with the ERG to collapse the GFA against the democratic wishes of majority on the island. These are policies and actions which have forced us to consider the UI question with more urgency than anyone ever believed would be necessary. Nothing else.

The DUP are entitled to their strategy but at least have the honesty to admit what their strategy is. Donaldson has been lying for five years now. He hides behind the GFA when it suits but stands on a platform with Bryson and ALlister who publicly call for the GFA to be scrapped.

How badly the unionist people have been/are being led, how poor their politican's choices were/are and how reprehensible their willingness to risk war again and sell-out their fellow citizens for an undeliverable ERG promise. It is their own actions which brought them back to 'No surrender' as their only strategy. If we're being real. they have never had any other strategy.

They blame everyone else, double down by whipping up hysteria around the NIP, claim it is against the "spirit" of the GFA and then tell everyone they will bail out of the GFA process by not following democratic mandates represented by the upcoming elections. They have already illegally withdrawn NI from some of the official institutions of the GFA. Bad faith act after bad faith act.

This has been a gift to SF who have had to do nothing but swivel from anti-EU to pro-EU. The hard left/remaining military hardliners in SF are above all, pragmatic and understand that any overt display of hard socialism will make them unelectable in the south. Putin's madness in Ukraine has nailed that one to the wall forever.

The Shinners are changing and this may not be immediately obvious to anyone in NI. Southern politics is changing them. Extremism will not be tolerated by the southern electorate. Nor will any UI that involves steamrolling unionists into a botched new arrangement. This is clear from the very mature attitude to NI seen in the IT poll which shows no urgency and a focus on the need to avoid any return to violence. And that despite the colonial attitude displayed by Tories to Ireland during the Brexit negotiations and since. If any future SF led government did anything to endanger the GFA, there would be no way back into politics for any of them ever again.

That said, we're in a world now where insane things are happening and if someone told Johnson and his sideshow of horrors that sending a gunboat to Dublin Bay "to deter migrants" was a good idea, he'd give it a lot of thought. The unthinkable is possible with these Tories because they are incompetent and in rolling and unsustainable crisis management.

Meanwhile the NI economy booms, Larne has a record year for traffic (both ways - odd that given how often we're told that the NIP is somehow making it harder to get stuff into NI) and job growth/inward investment has never been as strong. Sure, some of it is redirected traffic from GB to Ireland/EU but the net impact is a thriving NI economy and doesn't it deserve this kind of lift after decades of stagnation and neglect by successive WM governments? If there are issues with the NIP, fix them and move on.

One of the poorest regions in the EU in 2015 and now rising up because of it's unique position re Brexit. Personally, I think this is brilliant regardless of a UI but with that hat on, I think it;s interesting how the island seems to do better the further it moves from a reliance on GB. This process has been happening in the south at pace since we joined the EU, culminating in a huge reorientation by Irish business to the EU and via routes that were not previously available but are now booked solid despite a tenfold increase in capacity. Long overdue but triggered by Brexit. It is intruiging that the same is now happening in NI.

Ironically, the Irish Sea border was created by unionists, voted for by unionists and (partially implemented) by unionists. It is now embedded in law and will not be removed. If by 2050, a UI has not happened, it will be because of the NIP/GFA and the prosperity it brings.

Doug Beattie gets that so they put a noose around his neck and made sure the snappers were there to see Allister and Donaldson "remove it" Crass, and thick beyond belief. That's extremely belligerent unionism by the way. Overblown language/images used for the most mundane things by (usually) men who are local politicians with local competency whose core reason for being in politics cannot survive peace.

It's the same energy around why immigration has become the last redoubt for the Brexit faithful. The economic side of Brexit is a rolling catastophe, an almighty scam and a huge money transfer from poor to rich, soveriegnity has proved to be an elusive thing but immigration is a much easier sell now that racism is fashionable again. Lads who spent years arguing that Brexit was about freedom and the EUSSR are now left with "it was always about immigration" because the UK is an easier place to be a racist and the economic ruin cannot be hidden.

The same people jump on the NIP without any knowledge of Ireland informed by reality but unionists who take solace from them should understand that they are fickle and will cast you adrift without a backward glance if someone tells them it's needed for a "proper Brexit". A few Millwall/Chelsea fans are in for the "right" reasons but the rest of England doesn't care one way or the other.

I readily concede that an Irish Sea Border, at the very least, takes a bite out of the spirit of the GFA but it was an inevitable result of the game the DUP chose to play if they lost and they were warned, so no tears here. A wild and stupid gamble and truly awful act of bad faith against their neighbours in NI and on the island which they will never be forgiven for.

Anyone who disputes any of the above, answer me this.

Why do Alister, Donaldson, Hoey, Bryson always speak for the "people of Ulster" or "the people of Northern Ireland" when they mean unionists?

What thought process allows them to nominate one section of NI society as "the people of Ulster" and exclude another?

Were does this come from and to your knowledge has anyone from SF/Alliance/SDLP/ ever done the same?

Honest answer please.

I'd imagine the reference is to NI Unionists (specifically the DUP) jumping on the English Tory bandwagon, Freddie.

Also, I'm not sure Unionism is the defacto position, if we look to Scotland it certainly isn't. In NI, even in the most recent, supposedly damning to the cause of Unification poll, only 45% explicitly support the continuation of the Union. In England, the default seems to be more apathy than support for maintaining the Union as it.

If you're so confident that it is the defacto position, I'd suggest you widen your social circle.

be an interesting case and with a lower burden of proof than the criminal courts , but the results will be felt in the political arena

hopefully it will be heavily covered in the media too and not dealt with in a back room deal like usual ira court proceedings eh

crusade ? what do you mean ?

dont you think the victims of sfira should get justice ? especially if they aspire to be leaders of a country or two? history isn't supposed to be re written or forgotten to ease the lives of one "party" or another

I'd imagine he's referring to the highly selective nature of the victims you choose to highlight, Mike. I may be mistaken, but I don't recall you being such a prolific poster or calling for justice in any threads around victims from Nationalist backgrounds who were murdered either directly or via proxy by legal state forces rather than an illegal paramilitary group.

It is almost like some people are more interested in anything that can be used against the Shinners than the actual victims.

What about the British Army shooting children, Downcow? Was that not barbaric enough for you?

I'm just particularly impressed by the, "It make the pain of families so much more intense" line.

While Downcow is crowing about that and ignoring how the systemic cover ups by the government in control of the territory makes the pain of families so much more intense and wondering why the incidents with ridiculously dodgy cover up investigations are getting more attention than ones that were fully investigated at the time without state bodies trying to bury evidence.