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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They did reduce the excuse quite substantially. Also rub their greedy hands? It’s the public purse, not a company. The money goes into the exchequer and is used to fund public expenditure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭rogber


    Only if it's done in Russia. The EU will just continue to tweet, as they did today, about "perpetrators of war crimes will be held responsible!" when we all know that nothing of the sort will happen.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Money talks. Here's a list of companies still operating in Russia as of the other day and they're not all Chinese or close to it.

    Koch Industries. Not a shock

    Société Générale. French bank.

    Association Familiale Mulliez. Another French crowd with lots of different outlets.

    Cloudfare. US company.

    Glencore. A Swiss/British oil and gas mashup

    Raiffeisen Bank International. An Austrian bank.

    Plus too many western nations, Germany a perfect example, thought that bringing the Russians in through trade would calm them down and bring them into the fold. A fold they quite simply don't want to be a part of. Russia is an empire not a nation and they don't want to play back of the class status in a setup like the EU. The good business makes goodfriends and the appeasers completely missed this point. Never mind a few of them appear to have been, let's just say, not neutral. Which ex German leader is currently living in Moscow with a high up position in their biggest oil company.... The Russians played them like a fiddle, played their history like a fiddle too* and we're hearing the tune now.



    *the Germans are so paranoid and apologetic about a certain Austrian corporal, a paranoia hammered into them from kindergarten over the generations since WW2 ended. After WW1 the Treaty of Versaille really didn't work, so after WW2 the keep them guilty forever approach worked so much better. Earlier in the thread someone reckoned they'd like to be like Switzerland, "neutral". IMHO it's far more about not looking like turning into the Germany of the 1930's. That out of this they're making noises and moves to rearm is huge in the face of that.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭rogber


    In case you didn't realise, Assad is still in power while several hundred thousands of people have died under him. So 2/4 on that list are doing just fine.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,953 ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I don't think it's anything to do with any 'Soviet' ethos, Russian armies have acted that way since forever. Read about their behaviour in the Caucasus or Manchuria and it's the very same, rape, looting and murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Gaddafi got a bayonet up the butt by a feral mob ,Sadamm had a respectable official execution



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    No argument from me, I was referring to the land grab attempt, the reason why they were sent in.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I'll make a prediction now TV - and I'm well aware that with the passions running high at the moment this will not be a popular one at all - when the dust has finally settled and historians take over and pick apart the ruins of this calamity, in western much more Ukrainian in makeup areas the war crimes will be pretty much all on Russia's bloody hands, but in areas like the Donbas and yes Mariupol too, IE anywhere with more of a mix of Russian and Ukrainian separatists/nationalists there will be war crimes on both sides of this. I'd bet the contents of my bank accounts in this(about 3 fiddy).

    Like I said this won't be even close to a popular view now we're all caught up in the Them/Us positions, but read up on the back and forth in the Donbas civil war since 2014. Whataboutists were rattling on earlier in the thread about Yemen and other conflicts not getting attention, but the Donbas civil war going on for years is another war bugger all of us were even aware of until Russia invaded Ukraine proper this February. A war that displaced over a million people and killed at least 15,000, injuring at least double that. Of those displaced; over 600,000 voluntarilty went to Russia, 70,000 odd to Belarus, 800,000 voluntarily went to Ukraine(or beyond).

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yep. This fallacy that autocrats usually die screaming is dubious. The majority don't.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    Nazis on parade in Berlin today. Except they are Russian, not German.

    These people have access to all the reporting coming out of Ukraine. They know what is happening. They actively support genocide.

    A grotesque bloodlust pollutes the minds of the Russian people. Russia needs to end as a state. It needs to be broken up.




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    A grotesque bloodlust pollutes the minds of the Russian people.

    When anyone makes a statement like that about a people it shows they're capable of demonstrating the exact same idiocy as those they claim to be superior to and have lost any higher ground to lecture them from.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Id agree to a certain extent. Crimes may well have been committed by both sides - but for me there are several important caveats

    • The Donbas war was instigated by Russia. As with many tyrannical dictatorships throughout history, Russia need an 'other' - a group to blame and rail against. The looked at a pre-existing condition in Donbas - mixed nationalities and identities, and they incited 'their people' (ethnic Russians) to act as they did, and attempt to cede from Ukraine proper. And that created a reaction in the form of the Azov/Ukrainian nationalists. Horrible things happened, and that is obviously worth highlighting - but i view the conflict as being instigated by Russia - im not saying there werent extremists on both sides - there probably were - but the 'conflict' is a real-time fiction that served Russian interests
    • In terms of possible war crimes perpetrated by Ukraine - i could certainly see POW's being mistreated, and possibly executed. And i could see less concern shown for ethnic Russians, especially those who support the LPR DPR. But that is a far way from what we are seeing in Bucha, and Mariupol. Reports of dead women, naked, partially burned. Young girls being hospitalized with 'vaginal and anal tears' - mass graves of civilians - civilians targeted and shot where they stood - we have seen absolutely no evidence of anything so heinous being committed in the name of Ukraine
    • One could say there could be degrees of war crimes - and thus far (imho) the scales are tipped well over toward Russia having perpetrated the lion share, and most vile of these
    • Thanks to the actions of Russia, and the behavior of Russian diplomats (and their foreign ministry) - i would view with skepticism, any reports of crimes committed against Russia during this war. They are accusing Ukraine of staging many of those crimes which were obviously committed by Russia - i think if anyone does end up staging anything, it will be the Russians

    Like i said i tend to agree with you but its not even close to black and white. Still though, your point is well made

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,105 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    No bloodlust, just cold premeditation and will to kill large numbers of civillians and to try and hide the evidence.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭sjb25


    Im sure there has been crimes on both sides but it seems russia has acted the worst maybe from desperation

    To be fair to the ukrainians when you are being invaded/occupied it would boil down to one thing

    646e7c3b-d13d-4e29-9e2a-d3229baa6c7d_text.gif




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's amazing how the 'both sides' arguments crop up so much. I mean, the Ukrainians were sitting there minding their own business and Russia rolled an army in, destroying cities, killing what will probably be thousands but, yup... both sides.. has to be both sides, right?!

    If you get punched in the face by some psycho on the way home, you were probably asking for it I suppose too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,157 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Seems Russia have ticked every box for what constitutes war crimes and crimes against humanity

    That a few are put down by Ukrainian soldiers bothers my conscience not one iota - they are fair game as an invading extremely hostile force



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭zv2


    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,105 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I am astonished at the lack of further reporting on Putin's current wife and kids in Switzeralnd.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,916 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If they dont have a bloodlust they dont seem to mind blood on their hands.

    All the way back to Tsarist repression, civil war, purges, terrors, deliberate famines, katyn, the fall of berlin, gulags and the entire apparatus of the oppressive totalitarian soviet state and their local collaborators who treated half of europe as an open prison for generations.

    Whats going on in Ukraine is not an aberration.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭storker


    Agreed...and it's even more true today that it would have been last week. Atrocities beget atrocities, and it's easy to imagine Ukrainians dishing out the same to Russian prisoners instead of letting them call mammy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    Literal both sidesism.

    We see exactly what the Russian people think.

    Stop absolving them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭storker


    The old rule of thumb: if you want to know what the Russians are up to themselves, listen to what they're accusing others of doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭zv2


    In most, if not all wars, there are crimes on both sides, but Russia seems to see war crimes as an instrument of war. It is their war policy to pummel ordinary people into submission. That makes them different from the Ukrainians.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    The Russian army is in Ukraine committing atrocities against Ukrainian civilians in Ukraine.

    The Ukrainian army is NOT in Russia and is NOT committing atrocities against Russian civilians in Russia.

    If Putin isn't brought to justice rapidly when hostilities end, a price will be put on his head - that's obvious. There will be no peace of mind for that entity.

    With drone technology these days it's quite doable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,895 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    But the problem with that is Putin would be likely to perceive it as an effort to depose him, thus putting him in the 'cornered rat' position where he is very likely to unleash his full firepower.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Its a sad state of affairs but - yes - which is why i get very worried when they start talking about chemical labs and WMD type stuff - I do worry

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,916 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Theres no both sides to this!!!

    There is a single aggressor from the start and that is the Russian Federation. Ukrainians had every right to defend themselves.

    In relation to this post, honestly, this attempt to water down clear atrocities is **** sickening. Of course Russia were the **** worst. Such viewpoints should be fucked off the site. The Kremlin propaganda machine will be in full swing damage limitation mode and some will eat every word of it up.



This discussion has been closed.
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