Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Its difficult for people to understand in fairness. I sympathize with the obvious wish to do something in the face of horror. And more horror to come if the Russians attack Kiev directly with overwhelming force

Iv also seen several people talk about how a shooting war with Russia would be opening Pandora's box. I like the saying but i feel an alternative analogy is this: We opened Pandora's box in 1945 when we invented Nuclear Arms. If we could un-invent them - that would get my vote. But we cant, and things are as they are.

Apologies thought you were referring to today's

I think anyone with at least an average IQ understands the results of a nuclear attack.

The fact that Putin is making criticism illegal in his own country means he does not feel secure in the decisions he's already made. If he launched in with 'I'm doing this, it's going down my way and no one is going to stop me, either at home or abroad' then maybe there could be a case made that he has lost all sense of perspective and risk.

Lets play that out.

• West Warns Putin. No Fly Zone to be Implemented over Kiev in 24 hours
• Putin doesnt recognize their authority to do so. States he will not accept this and intends to continue
• 24 hours are up. NATO establish combat air patrol over Ukraine.
• Russian fighters engage Ukrainian targets on the ground
• NATO Intervenes
• Shooting war over Ukraine.
• Putin authorizes Russian Air force to attack NATO airstrips or an Aircraft Carrier
• NATO defends itself, and retaliates against Russian Airstrips.
• Putin launches multiple attacks on multiple NATO air strips and bases.
• Kremlin issues ultimatum to the west. Withdraw in 24 hours or a state of war will exist fully between the Russian Federation and NATO
• NATO Refuses.
• 24 hours elapse.
• Russia Launches first strike.
• Seeing this, NATO (US UK France) launch everything they have. Second strike.
• <END OF LINE>

Obviously the line of engagement could play out differently. Perhaps the west is the one issuing an ultimatum? We dont know. But roughly thats how it COULD go. It might go differently??? Now you could suggest there are several places where one side could back down. Obviously we want Putin to. ..... what if he doesnt? Do we?? Because that would be world ending in another way. No, at that point the US/NATO would be at defcon 1 - They would stand firm

Its unthinkable - but anyway.

Pretty accurate reflections of the day to day action on the ground if people want to follow

Why does NATO have to attack Russian airstrips ? Just keep shooting them down as they come, the Russian armed forces are hopelessly bad, they can't even maintain logistic vehicals doesn't bear much hope for their air force!

Putin would back down NATO strictly only defends and doesn't attack Russia.

The idea that Russia will choose to annihilate itself and the world over Ukraine is nonsensical.

NATO has multiple ways to get involved.

That aside what makes you so sure Putin is going to just stop at Ukraine if he succeeds? What makes you think he won't attack NATO states like Lithuania,Poland, Estonia ect and threaten the world again with Nukes if they intervene?

I mean if we go your route thats what happens Russia can essentially invade who ever they like without consequences militarily because nukes and our fear of standing up to them.

Why does NATO have to attack Russian airstrips ? - It would more than likely involve taking out on-the-ground anti aircraft sites but also the strips. At that point the shooting war, and retaliations against Airstrips/AA-Sites would be simply par for the course. Also, if Russia could not respond ~(the hopelessly bad scenario) - they could ASSUME that a defacto state of war exists with NATO, and jump straight to the Ultimatum line of the list

Putin would back down NATO strictly only defends and doesn't attack Russia. I am remaining polite and courteous, but you are assuming a hell of a lot. Russia, (consider the Russia of today, not last year. Today) could back down. But would they? Their choice, or more to the point, Putin. The purpose of having a nuclear arsenal is to ensure you DONT have to back down. You can DOUBLE down. Deterrence theory 101

The idea that Russia will choose to annihilate itself and the world over Ukraine is nonsensical. Less than a fortnight ago, i might have agreed. It has been a LONG TWO WEEKS. This is the closest we have come to a serious war since 1962

That aside what makes you so sure Putin is going to just stop at Ukraine if he succeeds? He has not attacked NATO. He is attacking a small independent nation that is unalligned. There has never been an instance, during the whole cold war, where two fully nuclear armed powers have been in a shooting war. Could he move on elsewhere and attack someone else. Will he? I dont know, speculation doesnt help anyone. I am glad Europe and Britain are between us and him. And i will say this, if i were a Russia Bordering country, i would be considering joining NATO ~(as Finland currently is) - I have worries for Moldova if im honest (google Transistria for more info - probably already discussed)

NATO has multiple ways to get involved. Again, absolutely no offence intended. But, no. They dont

The bottom line is i am 100% for assisting Ukraine in every way. I would support any and all weapons and equipment being sent to aid Kiev. Including Jet Fighters, AA, Anti Tank, - you name it. Sadly this is likely to play out as a proxy war... Plenty of precedents

Thanks for your kind words. I am genuine, and i feel HORRID about this whole situation, especially in Kiev. I could say way more (i am VERY ALARMED by the crazy statements coming from Russian Diplomatic channels. Saying Japan is 'siding with NAZI's again' and 'Germany should have been properly DeNazified' - in particular) - This is a horrid situation. And theres no equivocations for this. RUSSIA IS WRONG. But there in lies the problem - RUSSIA, IS ARMED

ALL IMHO of course -

Im off to bed - stay safe everyone. Slava Ukraini

Right firstly you are picking and choosing when it's ok go speculate and when it's not, let's be clear this whole thing is speculation till it plays out.

NATO can defend Ukraine and not attack Russia, they are a far far superior force, as can be clearly seen with the damage the Ukrainians are doing to them with the weapons being supplied. Russia has lost more in a week than the Us did in 20 years in the middle east. They could 💯 stick it to Putin and defend Ukrainian airspace it would take Abit of bottle. Alas we haven't leaders with a pair to do that.

Imo the reason the west hasn't intervened yet is due to the success the Ukrainians are having with there support alone, there is no way Russia is going to take and hold Ukraine not a chance with western backed freedom fighters.

Putin is no where near as much of a mad dog as being potrayed but he is using it to great effect to keep the west from intervening , the problem with this is our stand offish approach only encourages this sort of aggression in future as the west will always back down due to threats of nukes.

Ukraine today Taiwan tomorrow!

They have multiple ways in don't kid yourself if they want to go in in the morning they can. It LL be interesting to see how this plays out and how long the wests level headed approach holds up for. Can only keep backing off for so long before they have to stand.

I do agree a bloody proxy war unfortunately favors both sides, it keeps Ukraine out of NATO and the EU and it keeps Russia weak and bogged down.

Overall tho an awful tactical blunder by Putin.

You're willing to take the chance of nuclear war. Maybe do the first bit of research on how a nuclear war would play out before allowing your opinion to dictate the future of our species.

As for your IQ being double mine, I assuming you don't know a whole lot about IQ scores either. Ireland has an average IQ of 95, I would if pushed assume that anyone advocating for nuclear war whilst quite obviously knowing nothing about it would likely score quite a bit lower than that or they are simply unwilling to accept the truth on the subject.

Nobody is advocating that Putin should be allowed free reign but the primary logic of nuclear deterrence (that rational people are at the controls) would seem to have been compromised and therefore the potential for nuclear war (which IS worse than what's going on in Ukraine or has gone on in any war previously) is higher than it's been since 1962.

I'm saying that a basic understanding of how a nuclear war will play out would give people a more nuanced understanding of what facing off with an insane dictator with an itchy trigger finger would result in.

On the one hand we have Russian troops destroying Ukraine, a horrible situation that none of us want to see. On the other there's the guarantee that all of the human species will be wiped out.

Russia have been struggling in Ukraine, they haven't made the type of progress they want to make, their losses have been considerable and the sanctions that the world has put on Russia are only beginning to bite. War is expensive and taking away a country's ability to maintain an invasion will be the ultimate reason this ends.

However, we have countless posters here that want a quick fix military intervention from the west (who are incidentally supplying Ukraine with an abundance of weapons essentially doing everything but going in a using them for them).

The problem is that such an intervention would likely result in a chain of events you don't seem to have a clear understanding of.

If there was a chance that what you are advocating could work it would have happened already.

We should all be happy that the people making such decisions know more than a lot of people here do about the risk involved.

So the special forces, the militia and the Chechens are all to mount an assault on Kyiv it seems, and of course they now know exactly where Zelensky is (will there be a missile strike on Bankova Street?) - he's defiant and it's a great moral boost, but seriously what was he thinking publicly revealing where he is, unless of course he has since moved, very brutal bloody days ahead for Kiev on both sides:-

I think the Russian notion of just Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk may be long surpassed and that the conditions would be more like Ukraine to cede Ukraine.