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FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Their "role" was not having been in government for about 12 years at the time so I'm not sure they have much absolution to seek tbh. Though yes, I think they share about as much blame as all other non-government parties. I think all political parties were fairly reckless back then.

    FG tried a more moderate fiscal manifesto and it nearly led to the first single party government since the 70s. It was despised by the electorate. I think you are deluding yourself about what Ireland was like back then. Talk of fiscal restraint was not popular and not wanted. We get the government and opposition we deserve, and more important ask for



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    So FG are completely populist with no ideas of their own? Is that the defense? How do you explain the sweet deals, cronyism and housing crisis?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,351 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Everyone else in government and everyone in the electorate. I don't think anyone voted to have the economy driven over the cliff while the leader of the opposition said nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Everyone voted for the policies that allowed that to happen.

    This is a weird strawman tactic, who in the world would ever vote for:

    have the economy driven over the cliff while the leader of the opposition said nothing

    That's not even a discussion that can be had as it's something that would never be voted for and nothing that can be voted on.

    If you're going to go down that route, look at what the voting populace did vote for, what were the policies of those parties and which of those policies led to that outcome, contrast with other parties alternatives and see if that would have brought the same or a different outcome. As said, the public voting differently in 2002 may have avoided the worst of the problems, but it didn't and it was probably irony that the leader who fell on their sword at the time was the one tasked with fixing the mess a few years later (that was what vindication looks like).

    Last election I voted for nothing bad to happen in the world, boy was I cheated... (??!).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,351 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well don't say (as the poster stated) 'the public get what the public want'. It's a tired old blame game tactic to excuse incompetence and corrupt governance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,950 ✭✭✭✭Ha Long Bay



    Your posts come across as almost brainwashed banging on about corruption when we live in one of the least corrupt countries on the planet.

    https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021/index/irl

    1.jpg




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    I've seen a lot of corruption over the years and I would only be a passing bystander. Its in front of you for all to see. The people doing that survey don't understand how institutionalised corruption is here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,351 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Turning a blind eye and doing nothing is a form of corruption if you are the person or entity vested with responsibility BTW, might not register on your graph.

    The nonsense here 'that the public get what they public want' is just that, excusatory nonsense. The public didn't know what was going on.

    When they did find out they destroyed FF and sadly listened to the hollow promises of Enda Kenny, feeding on the weary public with promises of change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,950 ✭✭✭✭Ha Long Bay


    Maybe email them and let them know how they should be doing it. I doubt they use hearsay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,950 ✭✭✭✭Ha Long Bay


    Keep ignoring factual information and pretending you live in the most corrupt country on the planet if you want but back it up with facts if you expect anyone to take your posts seriously.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,351 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    More projection and misrepresentation. Where did I say it was the 'most corrupt country on the planet'?

    If you have to lie in a debate it usually means you lost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Also ignores the blatant lack of interest in following through on promises, 'no more quangos', 'end the scandal of hospital trolleys' etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    How many tribunals have we had showing corruption? Big one for me would have been the Morris tribunal into Garda corruption in Donegal in the 90s,

    Moriarty tribunal would likely be your favourite



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,950 ✭✭✭✭Ha Long Bay


    Moriarty tribunal would likely be your favourite

    Can you explain that comment?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭votecounts


    If SF had voted this way, it would be in every paper, hypocrisy of the order. Say they want help the Ukrainians but more interested in maintaing the finances of the oligarchs and the like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Going by RTE just now Ireland is still buying Russian oil



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They have plenty of ideas of their own. Those ideas were roundly rejected in 2002 as an example. Generally speaking, when your ideas are so massively rejected by the electorate it is a sign that you need to come up with different ideas. The electorate, as it turns out, were wrong. There is, to be fair, a fine enough line between being "populist" and adjusting your offers to what the population actually want. However, I think it behoves those in power moreso to avoid the populist label (and yes, that would include FG now). The 09 crash in Ireland would have happened no matter who was in govt, though I think FF made things worse and I would not be too quick to forgive them. But it was going to happen no matter what because no party that would have tackled the issues that led to it would ever have come close to being elected in Ireland.

    The "sweet deals and cronyism" are partly overblown, partly poor judgement and partly a function of being in power so long. I think its probably time for FG to move to the oppo benches. The housing crisis is, to me, quite straightforward - we don't build enough homes. A large part of us not building enough houses is every single politician at a local level happily piling on to every planning objection going and local authorities having **** building guidelines (mostly looking at DCC there).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    So when they got in on:

    Changing the way we do business

    An end to cronyism

    No more quangos etc.

    ..and went the complete opposite way once they got in.... They were doing a 'just something you say'?

    The siteserv deal is still under investigation, Moriarty still gathering dust. Current leader under criminal investigation.

    Do you not see why people would be genuinely peeved at them? Your defence seems to be they were offering good things but nobody supported them so then they just told people what they wanted to hear (and did what they like once they were in).

    The housing problem is straightforward. The government are more concerned about the property investors than the tax payer.

    They've been in so long now and now partnered with FF, it should be a utopia if you support them. I mean who is making all the crises worse if not them and if they can't fix things, its obvious we need rid.

    Their arses had barely warmed the seats when we'd business as usual with Siteserv.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,351 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think it's a case of not being able to come to terms with the fact that people now know they are the same as FF because of the great con sold by Enda etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭atticu


    As a passing bystander would you consider yourself to be more qualified than the people producing these statistics?

    Considering your claim, it seems to me that you have a better understanding of how to measure corruption. Can you please present us with your findings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,140 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    At the moment foreign powers dictate where Ireland sends its troops. I personally think this is wrong, but anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,140 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Well, then your partner is either lying to you or not telling you the full story.

    I listened to that interview, his line got cut 1/3 of the way in..... not much of a roasting if one cannot be there for a debate. But anyway...

    Here is the link.


    I'm more in the Cathal Berry school here, our neutrality is a bit of a sham, words we use sometimes to not bother doing anything or funding anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,140 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    100% correct.

    FG in that election tried the more conservative restrained approach to public spending and financing. They got slaughtered for it.

    It was clear that the Irish public wanted money to be spent and spend fast. Hence the issues that come up in 2008-2011

    In other words, we did all party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,140 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Its buzzword opposition politics. All mouth, no trousers.

    Not many people take it seriously.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,351 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'We all partied' - 'The public get what the public want' and sentiments to that effects are also buzzwords mark to mask the absolute mess FF and FG (and their whipping boy/girl coalition partners) have made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    How do you explain them getting in on changing the way we do business and no more quangos? Again, the defence seems to be they'll say anything to get in, but they didn't do as they promised as regards cronyism etc.

    Selling it like the public voted them in for goodies is completely wrong. They wanted an overhaul not a return to normal.

    "We did all party" is the attitude has FG were they are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,473 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I hope the coalition of chaos lasts another 3 years. They will have a rough time of it because they have set us up for increased discontent.

    It also takes time for FF and FG to be completely perceived as the same dodgy entity and voting option.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,473 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I remember Fianna Fail coming out with an absolute extravaganza budget in the early 2000s. Money for everyone. They were loaded on fake boom money. Maybe it was the one where the government gave every family a one off 1000 euro for every family with children or was it every child? Anyway, everyone was going to be happy - social welfare recipients, public sector workers, private sector etc etc. It was a free for all. I wondered how the opposition would respond...

    Richard Bruton came on the radio that afternoon and said the government hadn't gone far enough. I could not believe my ears.

    Idiots.

    Not another red cent was another one.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



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