Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Dohnjoe · 03-03-2022 01:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725417#Comment_118725417

Why create this silly strawman?

Ukraine is a sovereign nation, they can choose to join NATO if they want. Russia only sees NATO as a "threat" because it gets in the way of it's imperialistic designs on other nations.

Dohnjoe · 03-03-2022 01:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725485#Comment_118725485

Just because Ukraine comes with the "baggage" of an aggressive neighbour endlessly trying to turn it into a vassal state doesn't mean it isn't a democracy. That's ridiculous.

josip · 03-03-2022 01:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725391#Comment_118725391

Clarification from Ciarán Cuffe about the IT article. I was annoyed when I read the IT article, but in fairness to him, I don't think he should be included in that list.

Dear Josip,

Thank you for writing to me, and apologies for my delay in responding. As I’m sure you can imagine, these last few days have been unusually busy for my office. I of course agree that there is urgent need to condemn Vladimir Putin’s hostile invasion of Ukraine. If democratic nations are to flourish around the world, they must be secure from attacks by hostile powers such as Russia.

In this instance, there may be some confusion at play. I voted in favour of yesterday's European Parliament resolution condemning Russia's latest act of aggression. Two weeks ago, I also voted in favour of the European Commission’s proposed €1.2 billion aid package to Ukraine. However, this weekend The Irish Times published a story about my abstention on a similar resolution back in December.

As you acknowledge, there was some reasoning underlying both my previous abstention and my more recent vote in favour of these resolutions.

The text of last December's vote, which you can find here, expressed solidarity with Ukraine, condemned Russia’s aggression and called for economic and financial sanctions against Russia – all of which I support. However, the text also contained language calling for increased co-operation with NATO, which I felt was in conflict with Ireland’s and the Green Party’s policy of military neutrality. I wrote about these conflicting feelings in my Written Explanation of Vote, which you can find here.

However, clearly the situation has evolved since December, and I now believe that the European Parliament must be unified and unambiguous in our stance. Accordingly, I voted in favour of yesterday’s resolution, despite it containing similar language regarding NATO co-operation. Although I may disagree with the letter of some of the commitments included in the resolution, I wholeheartedly support the spirit in which those commitments were made. You can read the full text of the resolution, which has much to recommend it, here.

I hope I have been able to clarify my position here, though of course the situation at hand is rapidly evolving, and I will continue to reflect on and adapt my position as new developments emerge. You can read more about my stance on yesterday’s resolution in the press release attached to this email.

Don’t hesitate to write again with any further comments or questions you may have.

03-03-2022 01:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725072#Comment_118725072

What organization a sovereign country joins is their own business and no-one else's.

Wrong. It is also the business of the pre-existing member states of the organization they want to join. It is blindingly, tragically obvious that Ukraine has been led down the primrose path with regard to NATO. It cannot join. It must not join. People talk about how we should call Putin's bluff. What has actually happened is that he has called the west's bluff, at Ukraine's expense. Ukrainian membership of NATO will lead to a nuclear war and it's clear that western governments don't want that - yet. I don't see the sanctions as sustainable or conducive to peace. Crushing sanctions is what caused the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. If you don't think that they will lead, at the very least, to a crippling cyber attack on western infrastructure leading to unparalleled chaos and escalation, just wait and see.

At this point, western utopianism is going to get us all killed, because it has ignored the fact that there are other, lethal powers out there who won't allow liberal democracy to encroach into what they see as their back yards (and yes, this is the soft bigotry of low expectations on my part - I don't think much of the Russian and Chinese people. I expect them to act like beasts). It turns out that Russia has a Monroe Doctrine of its own. It is willing to bleed and suffer. And it is willing to incinerate us. When Putin threatens nuclear war and we say he's bluffing, or that it's all optics, are we seriously going to take that bet? Because we cannot afford to get that assessment wrong. Are we willing to give him the excuse he needs to end the world for Ukraine?

At this point, I would be perfectly content for the world to revert to a sphere of influence model, for the simple fact that there is no alternative at this point. If the Russo-Ukraine war doesn't cause WW3 (and I think it's 70:30 that it will), the inevitable Chinese takeover of Taiwan will cause it. Ukraine and Taiwan are not worth burning the planet to a crisp, and the deaths of our wives and children, and wives and children all across the globe. This is the most dangerous moment in history. It is more dangerous than anything that has ever happened before, because the stakes are higher than they have ever been. We are no more than 30 minutes away from a nuclear holocaust and we have a callous egomaniac in the Kremlin with ice in his veins, a dotard in the White House and an affirmative action hire waiting in the wings, and an utter buffoon in No. 10.

Let Putin have Ukraine and Georgia. Let China have Taiwan. Let the West hunker down, bolster its defenses, agree a new security architecture with the other Great Powers, consolidate what we have, and let life continue on this planet.

briany · 03-03-2022 01:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725431#Comment_118725431

I find it pretty hard to believe that the Russians

A) Hadn't the intelligence operation to know if Bush was flying solo or not; to put out some feelers in Washington whether this was to be America's policy going forward.

B) Weren't going to at least sit back and see what the next U.S. president did or said.

Now, you might say that the Russians saw a window of opportunity to invade Georgia with the South Ossetia conflict going on and decided that time was as good as any to use it as a pretext, but here's the problem with trying to invade countries - they don't generally like being invaded or enjoy the threat of it. The more neighbours you invade, the more neighbours you make think, 'Hmmm, perhaps we'd be better off throwing our lot in with someone else...'

Necro · 03-03-2022 01:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725516#Comment_118725516

How ridiculously cowardly and self-centred of you. Let the bullies win because it might affect me. Jesus.

firemansam4 · 03-03-2022 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725023#Comment_118725023

And here we go again with this kind of sh**t.

Ukraine expressing a desire to join NATO does not equal NATO being in the Ukraine.

On the other hand Russia is very much in the Ukraine right now invading and killing people.

To be honest why on earth would Ukraine not want to be in NATO right now? Their citizens are being killed with Russian bombs while they can look across the border to countries like Poland and see how they are protected against this kind of aggression.

Their are many countries in Nato in Eastern europe that do not host nuclear weapons and only wish to have the security of not being invaded.

Yurt2 · 03-03-2022 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725485#Comment_118725485

Ukraine's last presedential election was rated free and fair by the OSCE, which by the way, would have included Irish elections monitors as part of the mission btw.

You are free to read the report if you wish.

There was noted instances of vote buying from the Poroschenko camp but Zelensky won in spite of this.

The administration of the election was described as free and fair. Zelensky was elected, and power was transmitted to him in a completely democratic manner.

If you have evidence to the contrary you're welcome to furnish it.

Christy42 · 03-03-2022 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725417#Comment_118725417

Name every country you want to give Russia absolute power on their alliances.

Noting that Finland and Sweden have already been threatened if they join Nato. You can say Ukraine today but then Putin will want power over any country Russia borders if he can get away with it.

Dohnjoe · 03-03-2022 01:22PM

The absolute disconnect from reality is staggering:

Russia's negotiating position - according to the country's foreign minister Sergey Lavrov - is that:

Ukraine must "demilitarise" and "deNazify"
Crimea - Ukraine's southern peninsula annexed by Moscow in 2014 - is recognised by Kyiv as part of Russia
Two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine - self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic - are formally recognised

CB19Kevo · 03-03-2022 01:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725497#Comment_118725497

One sanction might not have an impact, 100 might not have an impact but as more and more pile on it applies pressure. Will it stop Putin-I doubt it, Might it make everyday Russians demand answers - Maybe, Does it give moral support to Ukraine - Yes.

Many of us have donated already and continue to do either in supporting humanitarian aid or weaponry but i'm sure i am not the only one who wants to do more. Short of leaving for Ukraine and fighting.

I believe in the cause but admittedly not enough to sacrifice my life... Maybe a pussy for not fighting for what i believe in or maybe being realistic in what level of support i can offer. Will let you judge me if you so wish.

cnocbui · 03-03-2022 01:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725169#Comment_118725169

All absolutely irreleavnt. There are many nukes on subs closer to the US than if they were in Canada, probably, just as there are nukes on US, French and British submarines in close proximity to Russia. It's all pretext and nonsense. The west could have behaved very differently when the soviet union collapsed, but it took no advantage of the situation; but now it threatens Russia at every turn? Spare me the BS.

It's all just the same old USSR/Russian con job of assembling a string of random words and claiming they justify what it is doing or wants to do. There is no truth other than Putin wanting to do something and is doing it. The words are just meant to cosnfuse and distract while he gets on with his plan.

cnocbui · 03-03-2022 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725223#Comment_118725223

That would entirely depend on how much money and how many jobs they offered.

03-03-2022 01:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725498#Comment_118725498

In the real world, sovereign nations can not do whatever they want. Cuba were a sovereign nation, should they have been allowed to put nukes on their soil? No. USA perceived it as an existential threat and were willing to go to nuclear war to prevent it.

There are a great many "sovereign nations" persuing nuclear weapons and other sovereign nations are actively stopping them.

In the real world sovereign nations have to consider the consequences of their actions. That is not the same as condoning the consequences, it is accepting that they will occur and deciding if it is worth it. Russia had been shouting from the rooftops that they perceived NATO expansion as an existential threat. Anyone with half a brain knows how a superpower will eventually respond to an existential threat. What did the West do? Goad Russia, topple the Ukrainian government, funnel arms into the region, spend tax payer money on fomenting anti-Russian sentiment. Every analyst knew what would happen. There are those in the West who intended for this to happen.

EltonJohn69 · 03-03-2022 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725387#Comment_118725387

I was somewhat sceptical of that story but know it’s clear that Putin very much capable of such an action

is_that_so · 03-03-2022 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725488#Comment_118725488

Sanctions are already doing that as the ability to deliver goods and get paid for them is already severely curtailed. Big companies are pulling out and smaller entities will do it more quietly.

Strazdas · 03-03-2022 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725542#Comment_118725542

The last one is an impossibility for starters. The only reason there are Russian troops there right now is because they illegally invaded.

03-03-2022 01:30PM

If Russia hasn't taken Ukraine by Monday morning 9AM their time and the Russian stock markets open. They will enter Zimbabwe territory.

03-03-2022 01:31PM

The analysis from intelligence and military experts this morning on the radio is pretty grim. The tone has definitely changed from heroic resistance to inevitable destruction.

Prevailing view seems to be that Russia held back their heavy armaments (in fact, never had even begun to move them) as they thought that they would walk in, with minimal damage and a pretty light force. They are in the process now of mobilising their heavy artillery etc and will flatten the main cities. They wont be able to paint it for much longer, domestically, as being a liberating force. But Putin is likely beyond caring about that now. Likewise he is unlikely to care about the casualties or the ICC or the isolation of Russia or the sanctions. As far as he is concerned, anyone still there is an enemy combatant.

Looking more and more likely that this is going to be an utter catastrophe and there is going to be nothing left of Ukrainian cities

gmisk · 03-03-2022 01:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725248#Comment_118725248

NATO aren't in Ukraine...

Christy42 · 03-03-2022 01:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725563#Comment_118725563

The US did not invade Cuba over that if you recall?

Second Cuba was allowed to stay heavily linked to Russia. It was not allowed nukes. Like say the way the Ukraine does not have nukes. That deal also saw nuclear weapons removed from Turkey and Italy BTW. Again without an invasion taking place. Neither was disallowed from talking to the west nor from making their alliances by this deal.

realdanbreen · 03-03-2022 01:33PM

Listening to the news there, it's gut wrenching. I rang the embassy, basically the guy didn't give a ****. I really think we ( the west) are at war with Russia. I for one have no problem marching on the embassy and burning it down.

GM228 · 03-03-2022 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724834#Comment_118724834

It certainly is interesting times ahead for the Russia airline industry.

The major maintenance contracts are in Germany with Volga-Dnepr Technics in Leipzig and Lufthansa Technik in Hamburg, I have read somewhere that not only has LT stopped providing maintenance in accordance with the sanctions but has actually terminated the contract, VD on the other hand being a Russian company won't go to such extremes, but obviously are still barred from activities.

Back to the video, Petter Hörnfeldt is a very well informed and respected person in the aviation industry, his videos are always worth the watch and worth keeping an eye out for more he does on the topic.

Botrys · 03-03-2022 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725498#Comment_118725498

we shouldn't get too drawn to the good cop bad cop analogy, every country has its own interests and you can't change the interests of a superpower you need to think out of the box.

yes Putin has imperialist ambitions, that's his agenda and he's not letting anyone get in his way.

NATO in its objectives is hostile to Russia and he'll be able to use it as an excuse to invade and expand.

Ireland as a sovereign nation has the right to bring the russian war fleet and dock it in its ports. How do you think our neighbours would react.

The NATO 'threat' be it to national security or expansion ambitions is credible.

different ways need to be found to deal with Putin and the sanctions/isolations are a step into the right direction

if successful, an under pressure revolution leading to a regime change in Russia would be the best possible outcome, eventually you're going to need Russia as your ally.

03-03-2022 01:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725600#Comment_118725600

How horrific. There will be nothing left of Russia's reputation in the west either. Will it even work as a strategy for making Ukraine negotiate?

cnocbui · 03-03-2022 01:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725206#Comment_118725206

I didn't suggest NATO countries go in, I said those with any future aspirations. And as for your do nothing and all will be well because this is the last country he will do this to:

"Reynolds: And you do not think he will necessarily stop at Ukraine?

Hill: Of course he won’t. Ukraine has become the front line in a struggle, not just for which countries can or cannot be in NATO, or between democracies and autocracies, but in a struggle for maintaining a rules-based system in which the things that countries want are not taken by force. Every country in the world should be paying close attention to this. Yes, there may be countries like China and others who might think that this is permissible, but overall, most countries have benefited from the current international system in terms of trade and economic growth, from investment and an interdependent globalized world. This is pretty much the end of this. That’s what Russia has done.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

threeball · 03-03-2022 01:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725410#Comment_118725410

Not only open, but with plans to expand. Time to shut it down, confiscate the land. Sell it off and send the proceeds to housing the refugees. What do we really want to have any sort of diplomatic relationship with these cretins for. You couldn't trust any of them as far as you'd spit.

Dohnjoe · 03-03-2022 01:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725516#Comment_118725516

So your view seems to be that Ukraine should not have "provoked" Russia by not wanting to become it's vassal state. And the rest of the world should not "provoke" Russia by daring to do anything about it's invasion of a European country.

And your grasp of history seems to hint you think Japan invaded *checks notes* a large number territories making up 20% of the world's population, because of sanctions..

GM228 · 03-03-2022 01:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725387#Comment_118725387

Have they not gone past the need for so called false flag events?

03-03-2022 01:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725610#Comment_118725610

USA considered it an existential threat, they were prepared to go to war over it, almost did.

The point is that "sovereign nation can do whatever they want" does not work in the real world.

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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