Russia - threadbanned users in OP

The weaponry from the west is starting to arrive...

I'd prefer if the poster stayed so we get to know two sides.

I find the posts interesting.

Why not suspend food and medicines? Totally soft

I don’t think Putin is gonna give a f&ck about Bidens speech.

If you have to explain that at this stage to some people then….

I tried to present independent sources in this thread. Obviously I am biased as everyone else is.

W.r.t. Ukraine killing Russians in those areas:

1) here are all killings reported by OSCE as I see them (obviously, we cannot say these were all Russians): https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports/killed?page=1&filters=%20ds_date%3A%28%5B2014-01-01T00%3A00%3A00Z%20TO%202022-01-02T00%3A00%3A00Z%5D%29&solrsort=score%20desc&rows=10&category=Ukraine%20SMM%20Reports

2) here is an Amnesty International report pointing at the issues in the Government controlled areas (they had no access to the Rebel controlled ones): https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/11/ukraine-epidemic-of-violence-against-women-in-conflicttorn-east/

Again, we cannot say for sure it aimed towards Russians. What I think we can say is that people are suffering in Donbass, where it is said that people are mostly of Russian origin or speaking Russian.

3) then there was a statement from Russian authorities about 'genocide'. I have no idea what exactly they meant, but here is a definition of genocide per the UN: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

What can be relevant to Russian 'genocide'-claims is this:

Frankly I did not follow the whole history of Donbass events. The most prominent 'genocide' event that I can recall is the killing of pro-Russian activists in Odessa: https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2-2014/a-18425200 I think there were around 38 people considered as pro-Russian. It is said that nobody was punished for this crime. If you have information showing the contrary, please share.

Can after that Russians feel them safe in Ukraine?

4) then there was government backed oppression of Russian people in Ukraine:

https://youtu.be/-JyxdSX6enk?t=120

Again, please do listen or read subtitles (not accurate) for yourself. I do not consider this as a friendly step towards Russians.

5) Ukraine also passed several language laws oppressing non-Ukrainian languages, including Russian:

I think Reuters is an "independent media", not backed by Russia.

If we speak about Ireland, it would be as if to oblige public sector workers, soldiers, doctors, and teachers, to know Gaelic.

Assuming I know only Russian, I should feel myself oppressed by this law living in Eastern Ukraine.

6) then the ex-president of Ukraine, Poroshenko, said this comparing Government controlled areas and non-government controlled ones:

https://youtu.be/zmhar0J27Hw?t=148

In fact, it is reported on stop-fake: https://www.stopfake.org/en/lies-petro-poroshenko-promised-that-children-from-donbas-would-be-sitting-in-cellars/

Yet, it is unclear how one group of people is better than the other. Why should Donbass children be sitting in cellars, if nobody is going to hurt them? Ukraine is going to respect the Minsk Agreements, is it not? Are people in Donbass not Ukrainian anymore, so that they do not have pensions and their children will be sitting in cellars? Ukraine lost Donbass, or part of it, long time before 2022.

7) there is a worrying report about the Humanitarian Law in Ukraine (need to join the link to see the PDF doc):

http : // web.archive.org/web/20170404215541/http://www.globalrightscompliance.com/uploads/bc006cfbcfa0653f85c62829b9a81ea7.pdf

There are many interesting things in this report that I encourage you to read. I would stress this one on page 54: 'A pattern of generally prosecuting or charging Ukrainian government and military officials (non-separatists) for a range of domestic crimes'

Looks like the civilians were oppressed in a mostly Russian-speaking area per this report, and the government failed to prosecute the responsible. If it was beneficial for the West to name it 'genocide', I think it would be named so. Instead of pressing Ukraine on establishing peace and law in the war-torn areas, the West probably pumped weapons and trained Ukrainian soldiers supported by the EU. Should we be surprised that it ended up the way it is now? I am not saying that Russia should not be blamed for it as well.

In a conclusion, my goal is to present a different position providing it with links to non-Russian backed media sources or independent institutions. If you see anything wrong/non-reliable with the links, please let me know. I will try to review them. I am just the same observer of this war as most of you are.

I cannot really call Ukraine "Western democracy" and peace-loving nation having all the information I have.

Some of the "tough guys" on here should join the International Brigade in Ukraine.

Its a bit àrbitrary. I get that an attack on home territory / invasion could trigger a general war but why should military action between the two sides in Vietnam or even Ukraine to control just that territory lead to it?

In the past powers like England Spain France could fight in the Americas without being at war in Europe.

Had Britain / France sent their own legion say to the Spanish civil war and engaged the Germans and Italians there ... it wouldnt necessarily have triggered a general war outside Spain.

It seems to have been understood in cold war era as you outline though.

I've seen you talk about nukes a number of times on this thread. The thing about nukes is that the use of them represents such a massive existential risk to humanity itself that mentioning them is kind of not worthwhile as it only raises panic, tension and hopelessness and these are not states which are conducive to sober conflict resolution. They're really the ultimate embodiment of 'the time for talking is over'.

So, to ask the question of 'is Putin crazy enough....' is a bit moot. We have to, for now, assume he's willing to listen to some sort of reason, for all our sakes.

Yes, I’ve seen that in Russia. I mean outside Russia. I was expecting support from Russian living in Europe towards Ukraine. So far I haven’t seen it. Instead they remain silent

Some of the biggest names in Russian music (Sergei Lazarev, Little Big etc) have condemned the war

Don't start with your nuclear shite again. Must have been at least a dozen of your posts yesterday droning on about it and trying to drum it in to folk, despite posters on here telling you to pack it in. Fyi, we've all got eyes and ears, are quite aware of the implications and possible outcomes, and you help no-one at all by constantly talking about it.

If the nuclear possibility - however remote it is - has bothered you personally to such extent... then may I suggest you get yourself down to your local builders merchants and start ordering the requisite materials to build your own fallout shelter. And give us some peace.

Now then, walking the plank is too good for Putin... or is it...

"In conclusion my goal is to cherry-pick information to present a narrative that Ukrainians are as bad as Putin"

Thank you.

Quoting to highlight this as it will be extremely beneficial to the quality of this thread .