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At last someone is building a Thorium LFTR

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    We've been breeding uranium 238 into plutonium 239 since 1944 and still can't make decent breeders.

    The Canadians were testing thorium in the Zeep reactor by 1947. There's nothing new under the sun.

    Until they can pump prime one thorium fuelled reactor from another this is just a way of stretching the 0.7% of uranium 235 a wee bit. Even if they can pump prime it isn't much use unless they can do it quickly enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭celtic_oz




  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not wasting 1.30 hrs of my life on this dull ****.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    In the first 8 seconds he says "stop this fantasy (fan scene?) and let's grow up and make 10,000 new nuclear reactors."

    How long would it take to breed* enough surplus U233 to produce an initial charge for 10,000 new reactors ??


    And how much messy reprocessing would that involve ? Because you don't want protactinium capturing another neutron.

    *you can't use uranium because there's only 8m tonnes recoverable at $260/Kg and that only gets you 1.1m tonnes of 3.5% enriched uranium and that's not enough for 10,000 reactors. ( leaving 6.9m tonnes of 0.25% depleted uranium , containing most of the U235 )



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    Construction is due to start near Wuwei in China's northern Gansu Province next year with full operation expected in 2030. 

    China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station in Gobi Desert

    According to the report, a prototype TMSR at the same location, which was designed to produce 2 megawatts of thermal energy but no actual electricity, achieved criticality in October last year.

    Building on the results of the prototype, the new facility will produce 60MW of heat that will be used to generate 10MW of electricity and hydrogen as part of a larger renewable and low-carbon energy research hub.



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  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's equivalent to one of the newest wind turbines or a decent sized solar farm which could both be in years of production before this one produces a watt. I don't see it having a market when they eventually iron out all the bugs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    That's equivalent to one of the newest wind turbines or a decent sized solar farm which could both be in years of production before this one produces a watt. 

    agreed. And renewables being the cheapest its a no brainer for Ireland to concentrate on interconnectors and our rich wind resources.

     I don't see it having a market when they eventually iron out all the bugs.

    Disagree as does China and India, new carbon free alternative sources are always welcome. AI will be insatiable.

    SITUATIONAL AWARENESS: The Decade Ahead, Leopold Aschenbrenner, June 2024



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.neimagazine.com/news/china-refuels-thorium-reactor-without-shutdown/?cf-view

    Chinese scientists have refuelled an experimental thorium-fueled molten salt reactor continuously without shutting it down. The Chinese prototype reached full operational power in June 2024, and in October researchers reloaded fuel while the reactor remained online, a world-first. # 1

    The reactor design uses molten fluoride salts to dissolve the thorium fuel, functioning both as a coolant and as a carrier of fissile material. This allows the system to operate at high temperatures exceeding 700°C, but without the high pressures associated with traditional reactors. The use of thorium-232, which must be converted into fissile uranium-233, enables a completely different nuclear fuel cycle with a lower risk of proliferation and significantly fewer long-lived radioactive waste products.

    The reactor produces very low amounts of plutonium-239, the isotope commonly used in nuclear weapons, and the uranium-233

    China has already broken ground on a larger, 10 MWe demonstration reactor, also located near Wuwei in Gansu Province, which will generate both electricity and hydrogen. This facility, slated for completion by 2030, is designed to produce 60 MW of thermal energy, contributing to China’s larger goal of building a renewable and low-carbon energy hub in the desert. # 2

    However, Chinese scientists point out that this is no instant victory. According to Guangming Daily, there are “no quick wins” and technical hurdles remain significant. The corrosive nature of molten salts, for instance, demands custom-built alloys like Hastelloy-N, capable of withstanding both radiation and chemical degradation. These materials must function reliably for decades, under extreme temperatures and in radioactive environments.

    The SINAP team used the current 2 MW reactor as a materials testbed, experimenting with corrosion-resistant graphite and metals. These validations are essential before scaling up. Another challenge is thorium’s nature as a fertile, rather than fissile, material. The reactor needs an initial load of uranium-235 or plutonium-239 to start the chain reaction until enough uranium-233 is bred from the thorium.

    Furthermore, the online chemical processing required to remove fission byproducts and balance salt chemistry adds another layer of complexity. Unlike conventional reactors that rely on solid fuel rods, thorium reactors must continuously manage liquid radioactive material, which presents unique engineering and safety challenges.

    Even waste management remains an open issue. While thorium reactors generate far less long-lived waste, they produce a complex mix of fission products that must be handled with care. China plans to store this waste underground in the Gobi Desert, capitalising on the region’s geological stability and arid conditions.

    #1 see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_refuelling for list of reactor types that can also do this.

    #2 10MW by 2030 in a place where transporting fossil fuel would be significantly expensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,574 ✭✭✭gjim


    In all the excited reports of the potential of Thorium as the future of nuclear energy, there's never any reference to the failed experiments of the past.

    The US ran a bunch of experimental Thorium/molten salt reactors at Oak Ridge National Lab in the late 1950s into the 1960s. They were nothing but trouble and the idea was abandoned - like many experimental reactor designs of the era. There's a reason the world has ended up using only PWR (70%) and BWR and it's not because other designs were not attempted - it's because they're the most practical design from an engineering and commercialization perspective.

    It's a bit like the SMR hype - a new technology that will solve all existing problems with nuclear. A story that is only convincing if you know nothing of the history of nuclear (in the case of SMRs - McMurdo research station) so that you don't have to answer the question "if it wasn't practical back then, what has changed to make them viable now?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    Nothing but trouble ?

    It was more about Nixon and jobs, Alvin Weinberg who in 1945 with Patent #2,736,696, (usually with Wigner), filed numerous patents on the light water reactor (LWR) technology that has provided the United States' primary nuclear reactors, was subsequently fired by the Nixon administration from Oakridge in 1973 after 18 years as the laboratory's director, because he continued to advocate increased nuclear safety and molten salt reactors (MSRs).

    For those interested in the facts :

    The Thorium Molten-Salt Reactor: Why Didn't This Happen



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,574 ✭✭✭gjim


    Ffs - it’s always a conspiracy theorist. I’m not watching a 36 minute video. Could you make your point concisely?

    Over the course of its life, the reactor was either down or operating at a fraction of capacity, so in the end generated about 25% of capacity. Amazingly - molten radioactive salt is a tricky material to handle - who could have guessed it 🙄 and cleanup was extremely expensive even by nuclear industry standards, the Uranium shortage turned out to be a non-issue and so the industry moved on to simpler-to-operate designs based on water cooling.

    No conspiracy - just another technological cul-de-sac well explored by engineers and scientists before being abandoned for more practical reactor designs. The Chinese molten salt reactor is little more than a lab experiment - 2MW - and about as relevant to modern commercial realities of nuclear power. The very first molten salt reactor in 1954 - the Aircraft Reactor Experiment - was bigger.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    In semiconductors Gallium Arsenide (GaAs) which is much faster than silicon is widely recognised as the future and as the saying goes "always was and always will" It's faster but silicon keeps being good enough to leave only niche roles for the more expensive and harder to work with GaAs. 1980's satellite TV LNB's had GHz that people using liquid helium to cool CPU's still can't reach today.

    Uranium is good enough. It may be even cheaper than reprocessing fuel.

    Thorium can be used to stretch uranium fuel but that's a long way from over-unity breeding which this setup has till to demonstrate.

    Thorium has been used plenty of times in commercial (and military) reactors. Shipping port was one of the early ones. Fort St Vrain was converted to gas. A lot of China's pebble bed reactor tech (different reactor) is based directly on the German reactors.

    McMurdo SMR LOL , AKA "Nukey poo"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    The experimental reactor at Oakridge is widely characterized as a technical success in demonstrating the viability of fluid-fueled reactor technology. The project achieved its primary experimental objectives and was designated a nuclear historic landmark in 1994.

    The video enumerates historical facts - none are contravertial or even close to a conspiracy. I've no intention of summarizing it for you, grab the transcript and throw it into AI - a 30 second job.

    Far from a cul-de-sac the chinese spurred on by the success of TMSR-LF1 have commited to a 10 MWt experimental reactor (TMSR-LF2) by 2029, and a 100 MWt demonstration plant (TMSR-LF3) with full electrometallurgical reprocessing by about 2035, followed by a 1 GW demonstration plant.



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