Energy infrastructure

bk · 14-02-2022 01:26PM

Meanwhile in the real world:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0214/1280668-electricity-prices/

"He said climate change is the challenge of the generation and ESB is looking to increase the amount of renewables fivefold by 2030.

He said up to 15 gigawatts of renewables should be connected to electricity networks by 2030.

This will involve onshore and offshore wind farms."

I'd say that the CEO of the ESB will know better what we need to do to achieve these goals then anyone else.

timmyntc · 14-02-2022 01:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628757#Comment_118628757

What alternative do the ESB have, realistically?

The only other zero carbon source is legally prohibited in this country, and the ESB do not make law.

bk · 14-02-2022 01:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628774#Comment_118628774

True, but Nuclear doesn't make sense for such a small country like Ireland anyway. Far too expensive and large and no way could we build half a dozen Nuclear reactors in just 8 years, so we would fail to meet our 2030 goals. Hell even 2050 would be a strect going that way.

timmyntc · 14-02-2022 02:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628862#Comment_118628862

Yes but the point is, using the ESBs plan as a signal of the benefits of renewables isnt really accurate. They are operating within a strict set of conditions that state basically they have no other option but to add more and more renewable capacity, because nuclear is illegal, the government have committed to 2030 and 2050 targets, and ultimately it doesn't matter to ESB if the price per watt goes way up. Their remit is generation capacity within the co2 emission constraints (and Irish law). They have no price motivation.

Its not an endorsement of how great or cheap renewables are, its just the ESB having no other choice to try meet targets.

RandomViewer · 14-02-2022 02:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628757#Comment_118628757

Wouldn't say that, it's just a random executive position that changes regularly, Paul Reid used to be with Eircom, now in charge of HSE so I'd expect that a macro level understanding of what they do would be adequate, people seem to give more credit to actual positions than is deserved

RandomViewer · 14-02-2022 02:54PM

I know that it will never happen as the anti-rural rump in government won't allow it but a grant to install solar panels and small wind turbines in the gardens and farmyards or rural houses with a guaranteed buyback off the ESB would do more for grid stability than any pie in the sky ,twenty year in planning/objection type projects that every wing nut is pushing

Capt'n Midnight · 14-02-2022 02:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628580#Comment_118628580

Net zero won't be cheaper than continuing to burn gas at historically low prices. You have to factor in carbon taxes and carbon fines.

You still have to provide realistic prices for alternatives. Because nuclear needs backup and or storage and way more spinning reserve.

Both renewables and nuclear need the same GW of backup.

Providing minimum demand for nuclear means you have to provide power from elsewhere for half the hours in the year. And it has to be dispahtcable because nuclear isn't. So that means gas. Or enough storage to provide half our power all through the winter which is more than enough to get wind and solar through dark calm days in winter.

on the other hand moving to providing more than minimum power from nuclear means doubling or even trebbling the number of reactors and them things are expensive if you ignore the PR and look at the actual costs of completed ones. (note : one in four plants that started construction weren't completed, so there's another huge overhead that you don't see in the brochure.)

Limiting 900kW turbines to 250kW output in NI doubled the capacity factor. So having another 15GW of wind on the grid could provide our demand 80% of time. That alone would get us to 2030 target. Beyond that the massive excess at times could be stored.

Round trip efficiency of 40% out of 15GW surplus wind would get you 6GW. Prices for hydrolysers aren't excessive and will fall with volume. (Setting up a 2.5GW per year factory costs £50-55m and like prices for storing hydrogen are a rounding error)

crisco10 · 14-02-2022 03:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627392#Comment_118627392

Except the percentages he quotes are based on MWh figures. Not MW. Big difference, MW is measure of instanteous power, MWh is measure of electricity consumed. So "replacement" doesn't even come into it.

I don't follow your other point about "preventing ceasing (sic)".....I've worked on a lot of wind turbines over the years, and haven't seen any import power to a significant degree. Turbines are perfectly happy simply idling in low wind, with a very small parasitic load measured in tens of kW, which is basically just used to power the yaw motors to allow the turbine to follow the wind (when windspeed increases).

timmyntc · 14-02-2022 05:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629259#Comment_118629259

Limiting 900kW turbines to 250kW output in NI doubled the capacity factor.

This is not the selling point you think it is - just a tacit admission that turbines output is so poor across the year that if you downrate it, suddenly its closer to hitting capacity. A rebranding exercise to distract from poor true capacity.

Capt'n Midnight · 14-02-2022 06:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630251#Comment_118630251

if you downrate it, suddenly its closer to hitting 80% capacity. - FYP

A Scotland offshore wind farm had a capacity factor of 57.1% Which means it was generating a 25 - 33% of nameplate capacity for a even longer.

https://energynumbers.info/uk-offshore-wind-capacity-factors - these graphs for UK, Belgium, Denmark and Germany show that the rolling average for offshore wind is at a minimum of 25-30% of rated capacity. Once you know how long the rolling average was you can work out how much storage would be needed.

The original data sets are every half hour from https://transparency.entsoe.eu/

Markcheese · 14-02-2022 09:50PM

I suppose your spinning reserve could be provided by another nuclear reactor , ( or 2 , if your single point of failure is part of the grid transmitting 2 reactors worth of power .. )

And you're going to need another spare reactor to cover for the reactors that are being refueled or in maintenance ,

Obviously , the grid would need some serious beefing up ..

And you'd need some serious grid level storage too - to load balance ..

josip · 14-02-2022 11:38PM

Where has it been said by the government that the electricity generation sector must be net-zero by 2050? I can only find statements that the economy across all sectors must be net zero.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/22e97-government-approves-landmark-climate-bill-putting-ireland-on-the-path-to-net-zero-emissions-by-2050/

From what I read, it's by the end of 2050, not the start, so 12 more months than I had thought.

Plus net-zero would mean that our exports of any renewable surplus could be used to offset against any non-renewable generation even after 2050.

So it would be perfectly ok to generate some of our electricity from gas during calmer periods as long as we exported more during the year?

Birdnuts · 15-02-2022 02:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627478#Comment_118627478

Tis a pity none of that corresponds to any type of reality on grids around Europe

Birdnuts · 15-02-2022 02:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628757#Comment_118628757

In the real world?? LOL, the irony of that statement from the windbluffers. As for the ESB, this is the reality of their record in this area

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/environment/substitute-consent-refused-for-controversial-derrybrien-wind-farm/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/esb-whistleblower-got-nothing-but-stress-by-speaking-out-1.3949539

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/513451/pressure-on-esb-to-act-over-mass-fish-kills-at-power-station-near-limerick.html

And clowns here want to let them loose on our Marine Environment!!

Birdnuts · 15-02-2022 02:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628862#Comment_118628862

We will be importing plenty of nuclear anyway once that interconnector in Cork gets built. As for targets, wouldn't get too hung up on them given that successive governments have ignored multiple EU targets on water quality, habitat protections etc. for decades now

Birdnuts · 15-02-2022 02:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629652#Comment_118629652

You misread the post I was responding too so none of that is relevant unless you actually believe that every bit of wind power produced replaces its exact equivalent of gas.🙄

crisco10 · 15-02-2022 08:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632783#Comment_118632783

I appreciate you clearing that up for me "eye role".

crisco10 · 15-02-2022 08:02AM

gjim · 15-02-2022 08:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632783#Comment_118632783

Nah - you're clearly still confused and are repeating the same fundamental mistake.

The original claim was "Take 2020 fuel mix. 43% renewables and 50% natural gas." - this refers to energy. Your response "Your labouring under the fallacy that ever MW of wind replaces a MW of gas" is a statement about power.

It's like if people were discussing the distance between Dublin and Cork - and you pipe up that a Ferrari is faster than a a Lada. It demonstrates you're not at the races in terms of understanding the fundamental concepts being discussed.

Freddie Mcinerney · 16-02-2022 01:02AM

Was just looking at the Eirgrid website.

Showing the graph for energy demand for the past 24 hours. Notice at approximately 4 am, the energy demand began to increase.

Would this be when most vehicles start to be charge?

Capt'n Midnight · 16-02-2022 01:26AM

If you install offshore wind equal to three times peak demand (3x33.8% =100%) then you will be able to meet peak demand 53% of the time with wind alone. Minimum demand is roughly half peak demand and would be met 74% of the time.

During the other 47% of the time peak demand could be met on average by ~23.5% from offshore wind and ~23.5% from other sources which can include gas, interconnectors, biomass, waste to energy , storage, demand shedding, hydro and solar. So would stay within 2030 target.

Graph from https://energynumbers.info/uk-offshore-wind-capacity-factors by Andrew ZP Smith, ORCID 0000-0002-8215-4526

Birdnuts · 16-02-2022 01:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632976#Comment_118632976

Pity that has FA relevance to operation issues and costs on the grid imposed by accommodating the greenwash fantasies of your type

crisco10 · 16-02-2022 08:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118638395#Comment_118638395

I wouldn't have thought so, I would imagine most cars start at the beginning of night rate (12 or 1am) and finish when they finish from there.

Freddie Mcinerney · 16-02-2022 09:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118638734#Comment_118638734

Yeah most likely best fit the points to generate the daily graphs.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-02-2022 12:15PM

97% ?

There was about 903MW being exported at the time.

RandomViewer · 16-02-2022 04:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118638395#Comment_118638395

Industry starting up, Deliveries to supermarkets start around then, Ovens would be heating up for deli etc.

Freddie Mcinerney · 16-02-2022 05:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118641803#Comment_118641803

Thanks.

gjim · 16-02-2022 07:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118638533#Comment_118638533

How would you know? Just because you don't understand something - the difference between energy and power - doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

You couldn't be more wrong. Distinguishing between energy and power is absolutely relevant and fundamental to all aspects of running a grid. Electrical engineers and grid operators would never confuse them the way you do continually.

No wonder you're confused about how electricity is being de-carbonized.

16-02-2022 08:26PM

The ESB has set out an ambitious programme to reach Net Zero carbon emissions by 2040 and to increase its capacity from renewable energy sources five-fold by 2030 to five gigawatts of power.

The renewable technologies will include wind, solar and storage, with the big emphasis being on offshore wind.

....the future of Moneypoint power station.

It says it is sticking to plans to shut down the coal plant there and to build a 1.5GW wind farm offshore. The power generated from that could be used to generate green hydrogen at a new power hub at Moneypoint.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Eamon Ryan has welcomed the ESB's 2040 Net Zero plans and says hydrogen will be a big part of the future of energy in Ireland.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0214/1280668-electricity-prices/

Markcheese · 16-02-2022 11:27PM

I still wonder about the logic of completely scapping money point and tarbert - they both have their own stores of oil and aren't dependant on pipelines - just keep them mothballed with a skeleton staff,and run them the bare minimum - for a few years at least , and I know they'd take days to get up to operating temperature,

Better to be looking at it than for it .. ..

Energy infrastructure

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