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Why do Landlords feel entitled to rent increases?

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    With you 100% on that. I have an apartment in an RPZ in Dublin which I don’t really use much. I rent the spare room to friends from time to time. I could easily rent it out (in fact I would rather rent it out) but the risk of bad tenants that I cannot evict is too high. I know too many people who’ve been stuck with non paying tenants and it is just not worth the risk

    I am sure I’m not the only one with rentable property who does not rent it out for this reason



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,040 ✭✭✭OU812


    That and reduce the amount of tax they pay on the property.


    have a friend who’s an accidental landlord. Has a great long term tenant, but selling up because he has to subsidise the tax due on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭Max H


    I would guess the single most reason LL are selling up, is as above. Bad tenants, who don't pay the rent or trash the house or are anti social, are to all extent and purpose protected by the system. Two years to get any of the above out is ridiculous. I am all for tenants being protected from rogue landlords who abuse the system, eg bang the rent up to a ridiculous level and then if you don't like it your out types. Or the ones who let out sub standard mouldy houses with dodgy electrics etc. But decent landlords should be afforded better protection.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,340 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    It was the SF proposal that rental properties would be deemed permanently rental even during a sale that ultimately prompted me to get out of the rental market. The money was crap and stress was high anyway but it seemed that they were lining up a situation where a landlord would have no control over their assets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    If memory serves me right, SF want sale of property to be removed from the list of ways a LL can legally end a tenancy. As lenders are highly unlikely to lend except in cases where there is vacant possession, that renders a property almost unsellable. Feck that.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,340 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Exactly and that may mean that your property is valued at way below market value as there may not be too many willing buyers. It definitely won't be above market value anyway. Sounds good for SF tbf but I don't want any part of that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    I think this is the reason, not bad tenants. The venture has become significantly more financially risky as a result of harsher regulations and legal obligations. At the same time alternative investment opportunities offer better yields with lower tax burdens and less risk. There is an arithmetic that can be applied here at scale.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think that Sinn Fein have any idea (or just act unaware) of the unintended consequences to renters from tightening the screws further on landlords. It would be a disaster



  • Registered Users Posts: 993 ✭✭✭rightmove


    I think they do know the consequences but are playing virtue politics like ever party is doing at the moment. this is backed by the media who do the same everyday on pretty much every issue, housing included. LL are in the list of bad ppl so common sense is thrown out the window along with the constitution it seems. The fact that small LL's who gave below market rents were being discriminated against at point of sale (property worth less as potential LL's would be stuck at the old rent) was unconstitutional. A case was never taken unlike in the early 80's but who has the cash or time for fighting that one. Same with MUP on alcohol. more virtue politics !



  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭Woah


    I think within the next few years landlords are going to have to decide if they want to "professionalize" so to speak or get out. If they ban vancant possession the government are also going to have to bring in stronger rights for a landlord to evict a tenant who stops paying rent. Leases of 5-10+years might need to be tied to income tax exemptions. If they just leave things as is but ban vacant possession we will see mass evictions as landlords exit before new laws come in.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Anyone asking the OPs original question, should have a look at the following report and ask the question why these figures are how they are and its actual real data, not anecdotal. I wont even put my spin on it. Its from the CSO , have at it

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/1117/1260475-cso-on-rental-sector/



  • Registered Users Posts: 993 ✭✭✭rightmove


    Looking over on askaboutmoney you can see some LL's are being pulled through the mill trying to get tenants out who tbf now have nowhere to go apart from the house of overholding. The government have been shown disgraceful negligence over the years on this issue, all while trying to look like the good guy and hitting the LL. When the LL looses eventually the tenant suffers and society looses. Our political classes seem more interested in how they look on social media then running the country.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,340 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I don't think they really care. A bad rental sector is good for getting them votes and landlords aren't their demographic. It is a terrifying prospect that they may be in government in a few years



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    When they finalise realise they can’t fix it, the Emperor has no clothes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭jo187


    It's become clear to me that the government have pushed small LL out of the market. The reason being so they can "privatised" rental accommodation and claim they need these vulture funds group etc to solve the housing crisis.

    Quite clear that the government is getting something out of these for themselves. Brown envelopes and all that.

    It's sadly to far gone, I Don't think it could be pulled back.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Why would institutional investors have needed to pay off politicians? Up until recently there was no legislative bar on the purchase of whole estates/apartment blocks. All any buyer has to do is offer money to the developer/seller. It is also worth remembering that the biggest purchaser of properties in Ireland, is the State.



  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think you’ll find it was tenants themselves who wanted a more professional run operation rather than accidental landlords. Go back 10ish years on this forum and have a read of some threads.

    The state takes up to half of the rent off of landlords and barely any off vultures so I think they’d want to keep both.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭MacDanger



    Agree 100% on the earlier point about bad tenants, it should be much easier to evict tenants who stop paying their rent - it's the biggest problem for LLs IMO.

    The tax issue is nonsense though IMO, it's only fair that rental income be taxed the same as any other income would be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    That depends on whether you want to encourage people to invest in BTLs.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,340 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Funds don't pay tax though as they operate on a gross roll up basis. Private landlords pay tax at 52 or 55%. Fair discrepancy there you will agree.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    I don't think that there should be tax breaks for funds TBH. However, I presume any private LLs have the option of forming a corporate entity and availing of the same tax breaks that funds avail of?

    Why would rental income be treated differently to any other sort of income?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    I don't think it's something that needs to be encouraged in that way; I think making it easier to evict non-paying tenants is something that would make a big difference and would make the entire system fairer for everyone.

    The trend in the number of rental properties available is mirrored by the trend in the number of houses for sale - a tax incentive for LLs isn't going to materially change the number of properties that exist.



  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    For one property landlords would that really be viable? How much are the set up, running and accountancy costs for a one property landlord?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    I have no idea tbh but the option is there.

    Like I said, I think that the tax argument is nonsense - rental income should be treated the same as any other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    We don’t.

    Im certain someone far more knowledgable than me about the tax liability of pension funds will be able to explain how institutional investors are able to avoid tax in ways private individuals are not. And it is not as easy as just forming a company to avail of the corporate rate of tax.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Grand so and what happens when 2 different tax rates are applied to sets of investors one gets all costs taken out before paying tax at a much lower rate the other can take interest out and the mortgage has to be paid out of after tax monies?? You are left with under 1.4k rental properties available to rent in a country with a population of 5Million. Good luck with that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    I've already said that I don't think that there should be tax breaks for funds.

    Why should rental income be treated to other income?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    As above, I've already said I don't think that there should be tax breaks for funds.

    Why do you think that rental income should be treated different to other income?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Eh because if you want people to invest, it helps to incentivise the investment. The Government did this previously with Section 23 tax relief.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Well if they were allowed even put the amount of money paid for mortgage off before paying tax there maybe more people in the small landlord sector meaning more supply meaning lower rents but they have been hammered socially, online, legally (with regards to tenants) and financially with taxes and then people come on here and p1ss and moan about the lack of options and the prices they have to pay. I am sorry but I have very little sympathy for how this has played out. Its not the fault of the small landlord that the government have kicked numerous own goals with regards to social housing and allowing reits and vultures come in and be the dominant player in the rental market and the sad part is that Sinn Fein when they get in are going to make it even worse.



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