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Married Men - A Gay Lads View - Have you ever had an experience?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I never said anything about being gender fluid. It's pretty telling that you had to introduce concepts I didn't mention to make it seem like my argument was difficult and too complicated.



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You brought gender into it my friend.

    Your argument isn't complicated.

    You believe a woman can be romantically involved in a sexual relationship with both a man and another woman and be heterosexual.

    Then you go on to say you don't conflate hetero and bi.

    It's not complicated. It's contradictory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Perhaps I'm attracted to women not because they are women, but because they are not men?

    I think you are confusing correlation and causation here.

    If Im attracted to women because of their female gender, by your logic, wouldnt that mean a persons gender declaration would influence my being attracted to them or not? Following on from this, would me not knowing their declared gender alter my attraction to them?

    These arguments have more knots than a ship full of sailors.


    If one, as a man is attracted to a single other man than one is gay. Ditto for women. Anything other than this is either bi or a sexual.

    You cant just sprinkle the gender dust and decide to change it.

    A cake is either full, partially eaten or all gone. You cant have some and yet still say its a full cake, even if you only had a little slice.


    /edit to add

    btw, phrases like "being attracted to a gender" are rendered meaningless when you conflate gender and sex and determine that someone can change their sex.

    If I'm attracted to a woman who subsequently decides to call herself a man, in your mind am I now gay?

    Or should my attraction to this person now change because of a label they give themselves?



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's like someone calling themselves a vegetarian because they only eat chicken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    but what if the chicken is vegan and identifies as a carrot?

    Also they were only a chicken once so that doesn't count...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,128 ✭✭✭Homelander


    I do think that some people of either gender can have meaningless sexual interactions with the same gender without it necessarily making them even bi depending on the context. Maybe they're desperate for sex, for a thrill, maybe they're just curious, whatever. There are definitely many people like that on both sides, that wouldn't identify as bi - and not because they're in denial, but because they know who they are best of all.

    Labels are stupid but for me even just being bi requires actual attraction to the other gender rather than just some arbitrary "No straight person would do that therefore you are gay or at least bi". It seems an impossible contradiction to some obviously, which puzzles me to be honest.

    There is definitely a double standard though when it comes to men and women. If a woman slept with a woman and professed that it was purely just to see what it was like, no-one would really make any claims as to her identity whatsoever.

    If a guy does it the reaction is typically, immediately he's either closeted gay or bi. There seems to be very little room for human curiosity on the male side of things.

    Anyway, I think married people sneaking around behind their partners back and those who willingly meet married people are both equally...yuck.



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Agreed.

    Cheating bastards are cheating bastards. And men who dabble in same sex activity are judged more aggressively than women who do the same.

    Disagree that labels are stupid though. Labels are the same as definitions. Definitions are important.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Noone is sexually attracted to a personality.


    Or have the progressive leftists decided you can be now?


    LGBTP, P for personality attracted. Pffff.



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They added the "plus" for a reason. Infinite I think. Working out well.

    Those who want to demand that people who identify as pansexual/non conforming xi is as legitimate as a defining characteristic as male or female are encouraged and accepted by idiots who think it's a good thing.

    Sexuality though.

    Straight, gay and bi.

    Only three options unless you are completely devoid of sexual attraction/interest, which in that case you are asexual.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    They added the "plus" for a reason. Infinite I think. Working out well.

    Oh yeah, I get that. Although I think the L at the front really means 'Lefty'. lol



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,507 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    I hope you are savvy enough to know that is an excuse. I would say they have normal sex lives within their marriage. Men don't need to be lacking sex within a marriage to have sex with or desire other men. Im not judging these men who do this. Im just being ...honest.


    I think online porn has ....erm ..how to say it ..opened up a lot of things to people who wouldn't necessarily go searching for it before. A lot of straight guys have a thing for men in drag for instance.


    For men sex is less about emotional connection. More about exploration and often crossing of boundaries. The very fact its considered taboo or a straight man to do might be what is drawing them. Which is often why you find its the straightest of straight guys into it.


    What people see online is getting weirder and weirder. Tentacle porn is the least of it. A straight man having sex with another straight man is nothing tbh. I think I would actually call it a vanilla snorefest.

    I think things we are not used to ...excite us. Porn is exciting ...things that ...even scare us a little are exciting...things that shock us are exciting ..


    Porn is revelatory it reveals to people things that they didn't know aroused them. Today, an unlimited supply of porn is available in endless variations. So many users are exposed to and become aroused by behaviors that shock them. Basically, porn reveals elements of their arousal template they were previously unaware of or simply repressed. And once these attractions are revealed, they don’t go away.


    But here is the thing. They are not gay. Homosexuality or Bi sexuality is not just about SEX its also about LOVE ...whom you fall in ROMANTIC love with. Who you are orientated towards. These men or some of them are not homosexual in that sense. Could it be seen as a fetish? Have they fetishized gay sex?? I don't know. Maybe its more.


    I don't for one instance think they are in sexless marriages though and I don't believe that. I DO think lots of them would say that.


    Sure lots of them might be bi or homosexual ..but not all of them.

    its not a fantasy..its very common. For some reason lots of straight men are into gay men in drag. LOTS. And erm the data released from the search engines of porn hub are erm ..REVEALING.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,507 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    When a closeted gay or bisexual man has sex with another man, he views that sex as reflecting his secret identity. He is not open about that identity, likely because he fears discrimination. When a straight man has sex with another man, however, he views himself as straight despite his sex with men.


    One behaviour confirms how the man sees HIMSELF ...whereas the other behaviour goes against how that man experiences himself or sees himself.

    There is a disconnect between identity and behaviour.


    The question everyone wants to know is WHY if you identify as straight only do you have sex with other men and WHY does this not make that man gay?

    What does GAY mean to straight men? Why don't they see themselves that way?

    Of course being straight or saying your are helps avoid discrimination.


    BUT also ...saying you are straight while you have sex with other men ..MIGHT be reflecting your relationships with women. OK so you are having sex with men and women ...why dont you think you are BI?? Well maybe he fell really hard for one women .or two or three..and that experience reflects his identity and shaped how he sees himself. Your identity is more than your sexuality ..it can mean all your relationships ...your idea of masculinity ....maybe sex with men isn't enough to alter their views of who they are. There other experiences are more life altering. Maybe sex with men isnt important enough to change who they are or who they identify as. Its not as relevant to their identities.


    And maybe some of them really are in sexless marriages or married to women who want less sex than them. But i think its an excuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,507 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Also I found this thread very interesting and enlightening OP thanks for making it! 🙂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear



    he mom-of-two describes herself as straight while her husband Matthew identifies as gay or pansexual, admitting he is “more attracted to men than women”.

    Before they married in 2017 Matthew had dated both men and women but he’d never had sex with anyone, including Brynn.

    And despite admitting he didn’t know if he’d ever enjoy being intimate with her, they tied the knot and became parents.

    Brynn admits she sometimes feels insecure but said she feels the relationship is stronger because it’s not focused on physical chemistry.


    They sound like a very enlightened couple



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 E.fromEnnis


    I'm a married guy, 48yrs old, wonderful wife and kids. We have a fairly good sex life, she would a lot less adventurous than me, but it's fine.

    However, I've always had this thing that I'd like to have sex with another man, not regularly or relationship wise, very casual, purely sexual. I had a couple of close encounters when younger but nothing ever came of them, prob because we were both too scared of getting labeled or shunned socially, not something you could do easily in Ennis in the late 80's early 90's.

    Let me reiterate I'm married almost 20 years and I love my wife, but this is a side of me she knows nothing about and would never accept, the very idea would be abhorrent to her.

    I've never been unfaithful but as I've got older I think about it more and more and really feel I want to do this at least once. If the right circumstances presented itself, I'd find it very hard to pass up. It's just one of those "life's too short" things, and I know I'll regret it if I don't?

    To get crude about it, I want to have my cock sucked by another guy and to return the favour. If/when I watch porn, I'll watch mmf bi stuff or group bi. I love a beautiful female body as much as anyone but watching everybody **** everyone else just blows my mind. Of course the ideal scenario would be, me, my wife and A.N.other, but that's never gonna happen ☹️. Even if she would consider pegging, but again, no chance.

    I'm sure I'll get slaughtered here for suggesting I might be unfaithful but I actually think it would enhance my marriage, weird, I know, but true. At least then when we're together I could leave that piece of me aside.

    I'm bisexual. It's taken me a long time to come to terms with that, but I finally have. I do think it's the least understood of all sexualities, as people like to categorize and say you should be one thing or the other, but I'm not, I'm both.

    Anyhow, those are my thoughts on your post, feel free to leave yours.

    E.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    This is the feelings that I was mentioning. There are men out there for whom they are only accepting these feelings later in life. Whatever decision you make buddy I know won't be taken lightly. There is a married men's group that offers peer support that meets in the Carmichael Centre in Dublin 7 once a month. Kudos on your honesty



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Well you haven't cheated so it would be a bit pointless "slaughtering" you.

    It's fairly mind boggling that youve managed to convince yourself that cheating is GOOD for a marriage though.

    It does give insight into how so many people can chat on their spouse guilt free though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Not all marriages are all what they seem on the surface



  • Posts: 7,946 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nah, call it rare if you like... unicorn like... if a guy fancies a guy because of whatever reason and wants to have a sexual relationship with them they are not straight. They may not be gay... whatever... but he's not straight.

    Question. Are lesbians in denial that they may fancy a man in the 'right' conditions?

    ^^^ wrote the above after I clicked on a link that brought me to page 15... we might have moved on ...



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  • Posts: 7,946 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If you read his post he has said he always had these feelings?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Tearoom Trade: Impersonal Sex in Public Places is a 1970 book by Laud Humphreys. Humphreys' book is based on his 1968 Ph.D. dissertation, which was entitled "Tearoom Trade: A Study of Homosexual Encounters in Public Places." The study is an analysis of male-male sexual behavior in public toilets.[1] Humphreys asserted that the men participating in such activity came from diverse social backgrounds, had differing personal motives for seeking same-sex sexual partners in such venues, and variously self-perceived as "straight," "bisexual," or "gay."

    Tearoom Trade debunked many of the stereotypes associated with individuals who participate in anonymous male-male sexual activity in public places, demonstrating that many of the participants lived otherwise conventional lives as family men and respected members of their communities; further, their activities posed no threat to non-participants.As Humphreys misrepresented his identity and intent to his subjects, and tracked their identities through license plate numbers, Tearoom Trade has been the subject of continued debate over privacy for research participants, with The New York Times noting that Tearoom Trade is "now taught as a primary example of unethical social research." Wikipedia



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    I'm not shocked. Sometimes I feel that it's justified if someone is in a sexless relationship and there is no fixing it but they have to stay together for reasons such as kids, finances then in order to stay sane they need to go outside the relationship to get that fix.

    Also some of the men propositioning may have permission to do so from their partner. Did ye ever consider that?



  • Posts: 451 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There are many factors concerning sexuality..curiousity, society, upbringing etc and life is a long and winding road of people discovering themselves. What is right for someone at 20 might not be right at 30/40/50 or it might be right.

    Whatever a person feels they are at the time is fine but also that can change. It might never change. It might change. I think it's the questioning anyone on it and asking them to define themselves is actually what causes issues and people feeling judged.

    If someone said to me 'im straight' then they're straight and that's how they want to be seen at that moment in time and it's not my place or anyone else's to question that and similar if they said they were gay/bisexual etc. Just respect that people are not programmes set in a certain way and have their own way of dealing and growing and adapting throughout life which will not just be based on themselves but also on their other circumstances etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    He said his wife would not accept it.

    What point are you making?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Well that's clearly untrue.

    Personality can play a large part in sexual attraction.

    For me, attraction is very much physical based and even I can be turned on or off by someone's personality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I didn't. I am using gender and sex interchangeably as which word you choose has zero impact on the argument.

    I didn't make any claim about gender and sex being different and my argument applying to gender. I made no point about gender, I made a point about sexual attraction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    So let's get this clear. You are arguing that "perhaps" some straight men are attracted to women because they are not men?

    How does that work? If their main feeling is "not attracted to men" why wouldn't they be asexual? What would make them want to have sex with women?

    As for gender I am using it interchangeably with sex. I am not making any point about gender changes or declarations or whether or not there is a difference between gender and sex.

    You can just as easily make a similar.point if you say someone is attracted to a particular sex. If someone is attracted to the female sex then wouldn't they be attracted to trans men?

    The point I am actually making is that generally, if someone says they are attracted to men and women, then they are usually attracted to multiple men, or multiple women in a way that suggests there is a trait or set of traits common to men, or common to women, which they find attractive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 E.fromEnnis


    Re: ILoveYourVibes post above.

    Very well written, very insightful and very true. Porn certainly is revelatory and has a part to play in opening people's imaginations and lifting otherwise repressed or subdued desires to the fore. Mine have been for a long time and without the proliferation of porn maybe would have stayed as such. What people do with them is a personal choice but once opened very hard to put back in the box.

    However, that bi side of me is purely about sex, I don't want a relationship or love, I have that.

    I just want to take my sexual experiences places I can't go at home. Selfish, I know, but.

    E.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 E.fromEnnis


    Thanks Olivia, very well said.



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