When does “having an advantage” become cheating?

babacool · 05-02-2022 9:45pm #1

A bit of a controversial question perhaps and only meant to start a little, friendly debate 🙂 (to me there is no right or wrong, black or white. Everything is pink)!

From what I can tell, athletes all over the world (more or less) agree that someone who uses performance enhancements that aren’t legal should be banned from the sport. That is since those gain an advantage over others by using something that isn’t legal. Same time no one really says “let’s legalise it” usually with the argument “it would be unfair as not everyone would have access to those drugs etc”. Which translates to “well, if I can’t have access to it, it is considered to be cheating!”.

Or let me ask it differently:

I pay for training - is that ok or cheating?
i buy 5 new pairs of shoes every year - ok or cheating?
i have a nutritionist to get my diet right - ok or cheating?
If I would take epo - ok or cheating?

whatever the answer is, the important part is “why” do you say ok or cheating! That’s what would interest me 🙂

06-02-2022 12:35am

You could add DSD Intersex athletes into the mix here.

In my opinion, these kind of athletes need to have a category of their own or else compete as males.

I think its a clear advantage.

Freddie Mcinerney · 06-02-2022 12:45am

I'm sure Victor Conte would have helped if your budget is low.

Sure fly to Mexico and get EPO cheaply.

Freddie Mcinerney · 06-02-2022 12:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058231563/when-does-having-an-advantage-become-cheating

Was the Frosbie flop ever considered cheating? Before my time.

OOnegative · 06-02-2022 12:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588992#Comment_118588992

The Fosbury flop isn’t cheating, Frosbie was a snowman I think…….

babacool · 06-02-2022 12:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588960#Comment_118588960

why is it an advantage and is it cheating?

Freddie Mcinerney · 06-02-2022 12:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589009#Comment_118589009

Before my time. Cheers.

babacool · 06-02-2022 12:58am

Not sure I’m understanding your response. Question isn’t who can help but “when does having an advantage become cheating?”.

why would his help not just be an advantage but cheating?

Freddie Mcinerney · 06-02-2022 1:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589019#Comment_118589019

Lunge capacity, bone mass density, body fat content. Training as a male before.

babacool · 06-02-2022 1:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589048#Comment_118589048

Why is that cheating to have a better lung capacity? After all, couldn’t you just get some help to get the same results too? In which case it wouldn’t be an advantage over you anymore?!

babacool · 06-02-2022 1:51am

robinph · 06-02-2022 8:28am

As far as the drug side of things it is also partly to do with the additional risks from the drugs.

Some outliers in that of course as caffeine makes a popular drink so is allowed, and the likes of asthma inhalers should really only be used by those who genuinely need them but it's possible to measure the levels to check if someone has been taking too much.

babacool · 06-02-2022 8:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589310#Comment_118589310

So is taking drugs banned because it’s cheating or because of health concerns?

if cheating - why?

if heath risks- again why? Isn’t up to everyone themselves to decide what to put in their body and what not?

and what about the other 3 items on that list? Is it cheating or not? Again, the why im interested in 🙂

robinph · 06-02-2022 9:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589316#Comment_118589316

Because sports have rules to try and level the field. Be that the number of people on a team, the size and weight of a bat that you use, the number of different sets of tyres you can put on your car or how long the spikes can be on your running shoes.

The amount of certain chemicals you can put in your body, or vehicle fuel tank, is all regulated so that you know what others are using within certain parameters. You don't have men competing against women, unless riding on the back of a horse, and you don't have someone pumped full of EPO racing against people who aren't.

E.coli · 06-02-2022 9:13am

For me it’s about the spirit of the competition,

In that regard I don’t see coaching, nutritionists, altitude training etc as cheating as they are in line with ethos of sport and pushing the boundaries of human performance and/or health.

Drugs and shoes I would see as crossing that line. There is a myth around doping in that allowing everyone take them would level the playing field but fact is that not everyone is a responder to PEDS, look at the cycling EPO era for anecdotal evidence.

You also have the fact that there is disproportionate health risk between World Class athletes and up and comers in terms of access to top doctors to monitor and adjust treatment (Think Victor Contes periodised Doping regime for Chambers vs some young Kenyan getting an EPO shot from an agent in the back of a doctors clinic)

The shoes have become more widespread in terms of accessibility and no negative impact on health but they still offer unfair advantage even at the top level where you see sponsorship affecting performance with some companies conceding to allowing there athletes wear competitors shoes just to allow them to compete. It’s a catch 22 as brands want to give athletes as much of a competitive advantage for brand awareness even if that means not wearing the brand.

At the end of the day though unless it is a profession the lines have to be drawn personally. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of recreational and masters athletes doping at amateur level and for some people it is done for personal glory, for others it’s seen as the saddest indictment insecurity

babacool · 06-02-2022 9:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589349#Comment_118589349

Ok, so again it’s down to: “if I can’t have it or if someone can have more than I have it should be considered as cheating”. in the end if everyone would have access to the same amount of EPO would it still be cheating if some decide not to take it and some decide to take it?

still not answering my questions though 😉.

is it cheating if I pay for training? Is it cheating if I can purchase 5 pairs of shoes per year? Is it cheating if I can pay for a nutritionist to help me having the right diet?

babacool · 06-02-2022 9:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589361#Comment_118589361

So the question is, when does it become cheating?

if you consider being able to pay for training as non cheating, what if the person next to you isn’t able to afford such training?

shoes are widely available but some can’t afford a new pair all the time.

Would you now not have gained an unfair advantage over that athlete? You get someone to help you enhance your performance. The other athlete is unable to do so! Why is that different to EPO etc? why would that be ok in your eyes?

(again, I’m aware that this isn’t a black and white question/answer topic but will always be controversial! 😁).

robinph · 06-02-2022 9:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589363#Comment_118589363

If you use too many engines during a season of F1 then it is "cheating" and outside the rules and you get penalised for it. If running wanted to limit the number of pairs of shoes you could buy then they could, although no idea how they would control it.

It's just the different rules for each sport.

Like the swimming suits were not considered cheating, but they decided that it wasn't how they wanted the sport to evolve, so scrubbed those world records and carried on as if it hadn't happened.

babacool · 06-02-2022 9:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589384#Comment_118589384

So who decided “ok now it is considered cheating” and why? Why 5 engines per year and not 20?

Answer: cost control.

why banning swimming suits?

Answer: cost control as it become a race of development and resources to find the next best thing.

but why is that banned yet there is no ban on how much someone can spend on training? On shoes? on nutrition? On training camps?

so from your answer I take: if someone sets rules it is cheating if you operate outside those. But because there is no rule on how much I can spend on training, it isn’t cheating even if the runner next to me does not have the funds to get the same level of support?

E.coli · 06-02-2022 9:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589369#Comment_118589369

For me the paying for training is not really an issue to be honest, I don’t equate value with price regards coaching. You will find a lot of top coaches don’t charge around the world (Bro Colm in Kenya being prime example) Even at Irish level you would find list of Olympians with paid coaches is smaller than the list who are. Others take a percentage of race winnings so performance pays the coach rather than an actual outlay.

With the Shoes affordability it is definitely the case no doubt but is it any different now than when it was prior with many Africans running barefoot. Inequality of access is a different matter (altitude training being another example here)

As mentioned personally the shoes don’t sit well with me but I will concede that with widespread availability now it has sadly become a part of the sport

For me EPO and other PEDS are different in that the encourage a sacrificing of health and length of life to get ahead with an element of gambling with your life given you won’t know if your body responds without taking it. That to me is the very definition of a shortcut and with the high cost I would see this as going completely against the nature of the sport

E.coli · 06-02-2022 9:43am

With regards to your point previously about PEDS and personal choice I think people are entitled to make personal choices regards drug use, however if they toe the line at a race the immediately demand there competitors to make the same choice they make in order to compete and when this comes at the price of health I don’t think there should be any tolerance (it’s the same logic I had around Covid to be honest)

So if someone wants to dope themselves to the point where they grow an extra foot and run Time Trials running sub 2 min miles all the power to them

babacool · 06-02-2022 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589399#Comment_118589399

But isn’t it a free choice to gamble with your life? Why would one dictate what you should and should not do?

E.coli · 06-02-2022 9:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589409#Comment_118589409

I think I preempted you Q above 😁

robinph · 06-02-2022 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589392#Comment_118589392

But there is limits on how much you can spend in the likes of F1. If it was agreed that it made that much of a difference for running, and they thought it could be controlled, then they could agree on bringing in a rule for that.

babacool · 06-02-2022 9:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589405#Comment_118589405

No one demands the competitors to do the same. It is a free choice. Yes, you will have a disadvantage, but it’s your choice. Or is it not just because not everyone has access to it?!

and the health factor, what about those with diabetes? Wouldn’t that be the same issue as with EPO? Most of us can eat and drink what we like. Full of sugar and carbs to get us through everything. But those with diabetes are limited to what they can and can’t and what amount. there is no limit around that (I think).

so why are we ok with having an advantage over those?

if you really think about it, in my eyes we are all hypocrites to some extent. We complain if someone uses enhancement drugs, blood transfusions, asthma inhalers etc as this will give them an “unfair advantage”. Yet we are ok if we have something over others just because it hasn’t been declared as illegal!

babacool · 06-02-2022 9:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589419#Comment_118589419

certain it has been agreed on or more like “we found a middle ground but ideally some of us are still hurt by it and have a disadvantage”. The cap is no issue for Mercedes’, Ferrari etc but still hurts Williams, haas etc. they are still limited on what they can and can’t do. Just because a limit is in place doesn’t mean everyone can afford that limit.

babacool · 06-02-2022 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589415#Comment_118589415

Nice try but you haven’t 😂😂😂

robinph · 06-02-2022 10:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589421#Comment_118589421

and the health factor, what about those with diabetes? Wouldn’t that be the same issue as with EPO? Most of us can eat and drink what we like. Full of sugar and carbs to get us through everything. But those with diabetes are limited to what they can and can’t and what amount. there is no limit around that (I think).

It makes no odds really for diabetes. Massive pain in the rear end to deal with, and all sorts of things can go wrong which your not expecting despite doing everything exactly the same as the day before, but there isn't any limit on what you could consume during an event.

There is some tech that we'd use to monitor blood levels which is a big advantage during an event and would be very useful for non diabetics. There is a pro cycling team who are all diabetic, think they are currently the level below TdF standard, but they have exemption to be able to use that tech during events which is otherwise banned for regular athletes due to the advantage it would give them. For diabetics though it doesn't give an advantage, it just brings us up to being not as badly disadvantaged.

E.coli · 06-02-2022 10:05am

There is an inherent demand in order to survive for man on the cusp of contracts etc, many have retired from the sport because they couldn’t secure sponsorship or broke down physically trying to keep up with doped athletes (Mary Cullen a good example)

With regards your point about people being at disadvantage due to there health the sport does address this with Therapeutic exemptions based on health grounds. Systems are in place to provide a s level a playing field as possible. Though people will always push these boundaries.

I don’t think it’s hypocrisy I think it is just people draw different ethical lines vs the official regulations. I think the question is more around tolerance but I don’t think you will find many in the sport who don’t exhibit a close to zero tolerance to doping (especially in this country we tend to take it pretty person compared to say the likes of the Americans )

Personally I have not even tried in any of the Supershoes but that is a personal choice but I have done warm weather and altitude training That is my ethical lines despite both being “legal”

Mellor · 06-02-2022 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058231563/when-does-having-an-advantage-become-cheating

I think you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions.

“it would be unfair as not everyone would have access to those drugs etc”

That is not, and never has been the arguement against PEDs.

Paying for training is not cheating. It's just training.
Buying 5 pairs shoes is not cheating. I'm not even sure why this is list. Whether you buy 5 a year, or 1 per 5 years. At some point they are brand new.
Not cheating to get a nutritionist. As you are simply getting help with knowledge you lack. In order to furl your body.
Cheating of course to take EPO. It's a recombinant drug taken to increase ability to supra-physiological levels.

babacool · 06-02-2022 10:24am

Sponsorship: so we are back to money. It is banned because you may not be on the top if you don’t do it and therefore can’t afford living. So if money wouldn’t be a factor you would say it is ok? as again, the health risk wouldn’t that be up to each individual to decide on whether or not to do it?

and isn’t the fact that we all draw different lines the very factor of hypocrisy? We decide for ourselves what is and what isn’t cheating. We are ok with a but not with b. Always depending on what suits us.

so @E.coli i see your answer to “when does having an advantage become cheating”. I see where you draw your line! @robinph what is your line? When would you say “to this point and not beyond” and why?

here is my take on it: let’s legalise any type of doping! It doesn’t mean I want to dope but I don’t care about what others do. So why would I restrict them? There will be scenarios where I have an advantage over some based on what I can do/afford. And there will be situations where I have a disadvantage. And that’s ok. I can live with that especially since life is based on that. Some win, some lose. There is no good without evil. There is no luck without misfortune. There is no day without night.

what do others think?

E.coli · 06-02-2022 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589514#Comment_118589514

If doping was legalised would you encourage your kids into the sport if it meant that it could have detrimental impact on health?

Likewise would you feel comfortable sending your kid down to local athletics club where a coach might be more focused on short term success vs long term health and development (look at attritional rates of Juveniles and you can get a sense for this)

babacool · 06-02-2022 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589561#Comment_118589561

Good question. And the answer is no to the club and yes to sport but trying to guide them on the right path depending on whatever the right path is in my eyes. Same time again it’s a personal choice. I wouldn’t want to make that decision for my kids (sending to a club where doping is standard) but if at some point they would go down that path I would be unhappy and disagree but couldn’t stop them (after they hit a certain age).

again good question same time isn’t that exactly what happens right now? A group of people trying to tell others what to do and what not? 🙂 and please don’t link that to covid. That’s a completely different story 😁. Your action or non action on covid has an immediate physical impact on others! That’s a whole different level. If I dope I risk my own health but not yours. Yours is only impacted if you chose to go down the same path.

babacool · 06-02-2022 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589478#Comment_118589478

Isn’t having a brand new pair of shoe the same as having some drugs? It improves your performance for a certain period of time. So why is that different?

why is it on the list?

simple: all of those items depend on your personal situation if you have access to it or not. So where would you draw the line and why?

why would you say “having a nutritionist who helps me design a superfood meal” is not cheating but a doctor who “helps me design a super cocktail” is?

again, I’m not arguing with you or saying you are right or wrong. Just would like to dig deeper into your thought process behind it 🙂

sydthebeat · 06-02-2022 11:19am

"Isn’t having a brand new pair of shoe the same as having some drugs?"

Ah here, thread finally jumped the shark

babacool · 06-02-2022 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589667#Comment_118589667

Nope. This isn’t about the shoes. Not at all or at least not about “supershoes”. You can apply that to a 10€ runner. Just look at it from the perspective of a poor child in Africa who has to run barefoot. Isn’t that a disadvantage already? And why are we ok with that? Just because “it isn’t our fault that this kid can’t afford a pair of runners”?

so no: “thread not finally jumped the shark” 😉 yet I wonder why did you think that in the first place?

robinph · 06-02-2022 5:29pm

It's just the agreed rules of the sport. If that be the technical gear you can use to make a fair competition, or what drugs you can use. They are probably banned for health purposes, but knocking back some amphetamines before playing snooker isn't going to help you any, but taking the opposite drug would and is so going to be on the banned list. Whilst a stimulant for someone running a sprint event might be useful, getting a ban for smoking a joint is just plain silly.

It's happened, but nobody would claim a sprinter was cheating for smoking a joint. Different drugs are determined to be beneficial above what humans should be naturally capable of, and except for caffeine, are therefore banned depending on the sport.

babacool · 06-02-2022 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591074#Comment_118591074

So you are purely going by the rules?! If you could make the rules, what would you do?

why would you ban one thing but be ok with something else? Where would you draw the line?

robinph · 06-02-2022 10:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591543#Comment_118591543

Well the lines move over time. It used to be considered cheating to take a sip of water before mile 10 of the marathon for example.

Maybe some other drug yet appears which over time is then accepted rather than banned.

spc78 · 07-02-2022 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589514#Comment_118589514

I don't think you can say health risks are up to individual choice - in Ireland & the UK for instance the State is left to pay for people who have made poor health choices. Why for instance I don't have a problem with a high tax on cigarettes & alcohol and why I don't have a problem with cigarettes being eventually banned as our taxes pay for the healthcare system left to deal with problems from abuse of those substances. The idea of sport is to have a competitive product - legalising doping is not going to make the sport any more entertaining so why do it?

Sport aside, EPO is an illegal drug which no doctor can legally ever prescribe to someone healthy so 'doping' is a moot point as regards the sporting federations opinions - e.g if they decide in UFC that theres no tapouts, that killing your opponent is allowed then authorities will step in pretty quick to stop that.

DeepBlue · 07-02-2022 4:26pm

Or let me ask it differently:

I pay for training - is that ok or cheating?

i buy 5 new pairs of shoes every year - ok or cheating?

i have a nutritionist to get my diet right - ok or cheating?

If I would take epo - ok or cheating?

Pay for training = Not cheating (there's no guarantee the training will actually make you better than you could have achieved with non-paid training)

5 new pairs of shoes = Not cheating (the shoes won't run the race for you)

Nutritionist = Not cheating (this is a bit like saying is training cheating?) I suspect those who pay for a nutritionist are more motivated to follow the advice than the same guy who reads the same info from a few good nutrition books. The "I'm paying for this so I better do it" kicks in.

EPO - definitely cheating as you're tricking your body to perform better artificially. You'll get a similar effect with high altitude training but again that's not cheating as it's not artificial (although most likely costly).

^^ Since I'll never trouble a podium this is all just spit balling opinion to me but I guess if you're in the group of runners who might be in the top 10 or 15 at races and think you probably have a shot then perhaps perspectives will differ considerably and your concept of a "level playing field" differs.

babacool · 07-02-2022 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595772#Comment_118595772

But who guarantees that taking EPO will give you an improvement at least enough to get to the next level? And why is having a nutritionist who creates a super cocktail for you not the same? Just that he would use foods you may not even have heard of before?

And if I understand your point correctly, according to you cheating is when: you do something that guarantees you an improvement!

which means the moment an athlete would try a new pharmaceutical cocktail that has not shown a guaranteed improvement yet, it is ok to do so. But the moment this cocktail guarantees you it should be banned?

so the first few people can have it as they are just trying it and their success counts but after that it is no longer available?

babacool · 07-02-2022 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595311#Comment_118595311

I beg to differ on the entertainment side. If everyone has free access to all drugs in the world and if the tax payer wouldn’t have to pay for the health issues eventually, a race up the mountains is as exciting with or without drugs. You still have to run up the hill as hard as you can, clean or not. but that’s not the discussion here 😁.

question is why is it illegal? And when does it become illegal? Aren’t there enhancement drugs that are banned from sport but still used to heal people? So where is the “cut off point” on what is ok and what not? Where would you draw the line if you only look at yourself and the person next to you?

how would you feel if you do something or have access to that he doesn’t or vice versa? Would you be ok with having an advantage or would you say “that’s not fair”?

DeepBlue · 07-02-2022 6:05pm

And if I understand your point correctly, according to you cheating is when: you do something that guarantees you an improvement!

No, that wouldn't be my point. It's more when you do something artificial.

if you went and legalised all drugs then each Olympics would just be Vladimir Putin turning up, taking a swig from a bottle, and winning the 100m. It would be more of science lab competition rather than an Athletics competition.

On the nutrition front - if your nutritionist is Alberto Salazar, then yes you probably have an unfair advantage.

babacool · 07-02-2022 7:00pm

Thank you all those who contributed to this thread. 🙂 in case anyone else feels like continuing the debate or contributing to it, please go ahead. As for me the “experiment” is over.

the following I wanted to see:

How much of interest would a simple thread create just purely by a certain subject line?
What sort of reactions would it create? What type of responses?
Would someone be willing to change his/her opinion or at least trying to acknowledge a different point of view?

so what I found is:

almost 900 views within 2 days. Isn’t that impressive. But compared to other topics started around the same time it’s great and even more impressive, it’s been 400 views within the initial 12hrs and that involved nighttime! So the topic “cheating” is definitely something that interests members.
it’s interesting how those who responded (except the latest entry) didn’t really answer the questions but jumped straight on to assumptions and doping, assuming that this thread is about doping only.
also interesting that some assumed that by mentioning shoes it just had to be about supershoes whereas this was just about any shoe. For what it is worth it could be the 20€ Runner from lidl 🙂 that triggered this question.
also interesting that no one really tried to even understand my point of view or only a few questions been asked to really understand why this topic has been raised (btw I’m not pro doping or cheating of any sorts I just couldn’t care less if someone does. I can’t control the actions of others and can therefore only focus on myself. And yes I still enjoy watching a cycle race despite knowing that probably most of the field isn’t clean. It’s still entertaining 😉). Why jumping straight into conclusions/assumptions? Additionally it felt like only one or two were really open to having a debate. Exchanging and throwing things back and forth (something I personally enjoy a lot! It’s not about being right or wrong but challenging each other’s point of view whilst still remaining respectful 🙂).
it’s interesting to see that we either don’t really question what we do or really are ok with having an advantage as long as we don’t have a disadvantage. It’s not a bad thing I suppose (that’s my statement/opinion. It does not have to be right neither it might not be wrong either).

the only concluding ask I would have is to really appreciate how lucky we all are. We have access to training, access to materials (shoes, clothes you name it), we get support to help us stay healthy, injury free, to improve in whatever we want to improve (legally I hope 😉).

The person next to you in a race might not be that lucky and still tries to get to where you are or beyond! And although it may not look like you “cheated” to you, he might sees it differently or at least would wish to have the same “advantage”.

thank you all and I promise to not start anything like this again!

bike2wkr · 07-02-2022 8:45pm

You're hypothesis has many holes in it. Yes If a person has access to a dietician, coach or better shoes then it gives that person an advantage, perhaps unfair but it's not cheating.

What about all the great African runners living at altitude, running to /from school on dirt tracks (better for runners than tarmac/concrete), living a meagre lifestyle, spartan lifestyle. Alot of these are things that give an athlete an advantage. Would you say this is cheating? :)

The answer is No. I think having access to all of those fancy things *can help but you still have to do the training.

Mellor · 07-02-2022 10:54pm

Isn’t having a brand new pair of shoe the same as having some drugs? It improves your performance for a certain period of time.

No, not the same at all. Drugs increase performance/abilities to supra-physiological levels. New shoes do not. That is the difference.

why is it on the list?

Why is what on the list? EPO. I explain why in the post you quoted.

simple: all of those items depend on your personal situation if you have access to it or not. So where would you draw the line and why?

They do depend on a persons circumstance. Pretty much everything does when you think about it. But that has nothing to do with the legalities of sports.

why would you say “having a nutritionist who helps me design a superfood meal” is not cheating but a doctor who “helps me design a super cocktail” is?

Because one is natural food. The other synthetic drugs. There is a benefit from food, but it's minor and natural. The drugs give a much larger benefit. This benefit is considered supra-psychology, and not natural.

athlone573 · 07-02-2022 11:07pm

The only thing there I'd consider cheating is the aul EPO. Health risks and not something we want to encourage for our young people or anyone else. I'm even uneasy about creatine or other supplements and think a balanced normal diet is safest for the body long term.

If anyone can afford multiple trips to lanza, a personal trainer and a new pair of shoes every fortnight more power to them!

When does “having an advantage” become cheating?

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