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Prince Andrew in jep?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You can ask "why hasn't that come out yet?" about any of the details of this case and the answer will always be the same. The trial hasn't happened yet. The evidence has not been presented yet.

    On the question of how Epstein compelled Giuffre to do what she did, he certainly doesn't have to have forced her at gunpoint. Very few people who are the victims in underage sex cases are forced at gunpoint; sometimes they are enthusiastic participants (in many cases, after long grooming and manipulation); sometimes they are more ambivalent. But their willingness or lack of willingness is irrelevant; all that matters is that they are under age. I haven't looked for it, but as there have been previous legal proceedings relating to Epstein and his behaviour, I imagine that there is plenty of evidence on the record about Epstein's manner of procuring, grooming, manipulating and where necessary coercing underage victims.

    As for trafficking "in the traditional sense", I'm not sure what you think the traditional sense of trafficking is. But so far as a trafficking charge is concerned it makes no difference at all whether she went willingly or not, or whether her parents consented or cared or even knew that she was going. The essence of human trafficking is bringing someone into the country, or out of the country, or from A to B within the country, in order to exploit them — exploitation being understood as the commission of any of a range of offences covering slavery, involuntary servitude, sexual offences, etc. Obviously willingness is relevant to some of these offences - slavery, for example - but not to others. However willing, even enthusiastic, a 17-year old is, it is unlawful for them to do any kind of sex work, so if you bring them into the country to do sex work you are trafficking them. And if you are the recipient of their sexual services you are exploiting a trafficked child sex worker, Your Royal Highness.

    (Despite what right-wing politicians and the right-wing press would have you believe, bringing people into the country so that they can seek protection as refugees is not a trafficking offence; it is not against the law either to seek protection or to enter the country for that purpose, so there is no exploitation offence committed, and therefore no trafficking.)



  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yet another great post- Thanks Peregrinus.


    the more I read your post the more I realise that Andrew is well and truely feiced,

    There are 3 alleged occasions where Andrew had sex with Roberts/Guiffre - we’ve really only heard details on the UK incident - and that alone has made up a lot of peoples minds as we have seen from this thread alone. He really closed down his options when he did that news night interview - that’s set in stone now, pizzas and all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    I was looking at you tube documentaries where Roberts was describing her relationship with Epstein/Maxwell...she said most of the time it was just the 3 of them on the island and she described it they acted like a real family.... snorkeling... swimming...hiking...and they wanted her to have a baby....her words...and they'd set her up with all the care..... maybe they were setting her up for a royal baby...who knows....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,659 ✭✭✭keeponhurling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,201 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Which all ties in with how a 17 year old could be groomed and acting as a willing participant without resistance. How she could happily pose for a photo with Andrew and still be trafficked out to him. How she could help recruit more girls. She was groomed and conditioned as someone under the age of consent to act in a particular way.

    She didn't see it as abuse at the time. She didn't see how she was being manipulated.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,659 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    As somebody already pointed out, for Andrew it is not so much about the verdict of the civil trial - because no criminal charges are on the table and I guess $$$ is not an issue for him and his family.

    It's more about the court of public opinion. How bad will he end up looking.

    Maybe for him the best outcomes in order are:

    1. An out of court settlement, without an admission. (although unclear if this is possible)
    2. An out of court settlement, with an admission of guilt. (he admits guilt, but at least it is in one go, and he isn't dragged through a lengthy and public hearing. Who knows what details would then become public)
    3. Go to trial. Regardless of outcome this is what he wants to avoid. The verdict almost doesn't matter.

    Or maybe none of it matters. His reputation is already ruined, nobody wants to be associated with him anymore, his name is dirt.

    I have excluded the possibility that he is entirely innocent in this whole thing and will provide satisfactory answers to fully clear his name. If that was really the case, he wouldn't have been hiding and uncooperative all this time. Or why would he have been stripped of his titles and so on...



  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You could try that as a defence - however, to date, Andy has denied even meeting her no less anything else. And just look at that picture she screams teenager. I think Roberts lawyers could persuade a jury, if they believe that Andy had sex with her, to go one step further and believe she was trafficked there for his pleasure given her age alone. Once they believe they had sex I don’t see it being a big hurdle to get them to believe anything else- but will they believe Roberts in the first instance?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    In the newsnight interview..at a dinner party...John brockman said he saw Andrew getting a foot massage from a Russian girl..or the house manager in Florida saying he got massages when staying there...that's the kind of real third party evidence that could really be another reason to show why prince Andrew really wanted to stay at Epstein houses whether Epstein or Maxwell were there or not....not 1 paparazzi photo of them going in or out of tramps niteclub where paparazzi stalk all the time....Roberts grievances no doubt fully lie with Epstein/Maxwell... undoubtedly Andrew may have availed of the massages made available but to pin it down to someone specifically is a bit of a lottery.

    Post edited by cap.in.hand. on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    You couldn't infer that photo is anything but a photo opportunity with a royal...a rarity for anyone even moreso for a American where they seem to be obsessed with the royal family...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,528 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    She was of legal age in the UK though so it is really down to was she trafficked specifically.


    In hindsight Andrew should have stated that he did remember meeting her but that was all. The photo could be explained away and then it would be really down to her word vs his with it being a lot harder for her to prove anything.


    He has dug himself in to a hole with the position he's taken.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    Prince Andrew was the father of 2 girls himself .. Epstein wasn't in the same position...both of these men would have completely different agendas based on that alone...I would think he would have visited Maxwell's house maybe on her invitation for another dinner party again as I'm sure they would be leaving again for the US...

    Post edited by cap.in.hand. on


  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Totally- he’s absolutely no room for manoeuvre - but then again if he did nothing why make up something?

    there’s a witness from the Maxwell trial who was an underage victim herself stating that Roberts bragged to her on her return from the UK that she’d bagged a Prince - however it may also have never happened and she might have just been bluffing to earn kudos and esteem with her fellow girls in the twisted world she lived in at that time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    Do they have to prove that Andrew knew the following to get a win in this case?

    1. Knew she was trafficked.
    2. Knew she was 17.

    How do you prove that Andrew knew those things?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    And just to add to the grooming element- Maxwell recruited a long line of underage girls in the Florida area to give Epstein massages and sex. Guiffree herself was recruited from Donald Trumps Mar a Lago resort where she worked as a waitress and locker room attendant. The one thing in common with all the girls recruited by Maxwell is that they came from broken homes and were vulnerable. Maxwell deliberately preyed on this in the same way that pimps recruiting prostitutes do, girls from broken homes are a prime target for them as their damaged childhood usually means they dont have normal societal and sexual boundaries. Plus they're often desperate for money. It is classic predatory grooming behavior to target this profile of girl and thats what Maxwell was doing over and over again.

    The trial will have at least two witnesses who were also groomed by Maxwell. One of them already testified at Maxwells trial and was deemed to be an very effective witness in how this grooming took place. The same is going to happen at Prince Andrews trial should it go ahead. The prosecution wont have any problems proving Guiffree was a victim of grooming for sexual services and then later trafficked to London and the Caribbean.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    London was the last leg of the of a 6 week worldwide holiday that the 3 had taken before flying back to the US from London at that time.... so they certainly took the scenic route to supposedly traffic Roberts to London especially for prince andrew



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,032 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don’t think Roberts originally being groomed will be in question- it’s more IF Andrew had sex with her, did he know she was trafficked.

    As Perigrenus rightly pointed out some pages back, if Andrew did have sex with her, how could he not have known that she was trafficked for that purpose by Epstein and Maxwell - I mean what the hell else was she there for? It was a logic I hadn’t thought of and one that makes perfect sense when you think about it- which means convincing the jury they had sex is probably the key task.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    That she would have been in London anyways it being part of the holidays the 3 were on .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    None of which will matter in a court of law, either she was trafficked as a minor or she wasnt. All the evidence thus far suggests she was.

    Convincing the jury that they had sex is the clincher. However it is going to be made a lot easier by Andrews defence so far, namely that 1. He has no recollection of ever even meeting her and 2. 'Experts' have told him the photo could be fake. The photo disproves his lies and once that happens a juror immediately thinks well he is clearly lying about this aspect so what else is he lying about. Now that doesnt mean that he is lying about not having sex with her but his problem is if he shows himself up as a liar on one aspect and the jury have to decide who is telling the truth here on the balance of probabilities then it isnt likely to be Andrew that they believe. Rightly or wrongly their human reaction is going to be that liars tell more lies to cover up the first set of lies.

    His defence on the photograph is just so jarring that I think any juror would think that this guy is trying to make a mug out of us, he is basically telling us the sky isnt blue. If he goes in with that defence it will be farcical inside the courtroom and Guiffres lawyers will make an absolute song and dance about it in front of the jury, Andrew will have given them an empty net to score into. If he completely changes his defence between now and then and admits the photo is real and he did meet her its pretty inconceivable that the jury wont know about it through media reporting. He tripped himself up big time in that BBC interview and now he is cornered into a defence that lacks all credibility



  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    His few days of goodbye to Epstein also stinks- it’s the longest goodbye since The Beverley Hill Billies used to wave off their TV audience at the end of the show 😂

    But seriously that meeting and excuse he gave in the interview made no sense whatsoever



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,032 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    and that means she wasn't trafficked? is that what you are trying to say?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    yeah and its all his evidence from the BBC interview that will now be used to scuttle him. The sweating, the photograph, the witness who saw them in the nightclub, it will all be used to paint him as lying. And from there the jury is likely to conclude that they clearly cant believe what he is claiming. Had he gone with the defence that yeah we did meet and the photo is real but he still denied they had sex he would have had a fighting chance. But instead he has just gone with a full blitz of lies to cover up the main allegation. The trial is all about who do the jury believe and Andrew straight off the bat is going in there telling demonstrable lies, no grey areas, no nothing. He is actually off his nut the way he has gone about this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    What I'm saying is Andrew may have not known Roberts was in London with them when he called to the house in London...he may not have even known that they had all been on a 6 week holiday .... he may have got a phone call to call over to the house to meet for catch up before they head off...but Roberts was there...he could do nothing bout her being there...

    .



  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    i think it’s all back to he protested too much- he practically laid out his defence as he saw it when in fact he had little reason to if he had done nothing wrong- I mean why would you do that if you hadn’t slept with her? Just a simple “I don’t sleep with teenage girls” would have been sufficient - there was definitely a hold on him from Epstein too- whether it was financial or sexual who knows but Epstein definitely had him over a barrel on something - it was car crash watching his explanation - a big payoff & no apology or admittance of liability is probably where this will end up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    I wouldn't be surprised if Maxwell was also his advisor on how to handle this explosive connection as they seemed to be in email communication about Roberts between them and look where she is now herself

    Post edited by cap.in.hand. on


  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s ironic that Maxwell likely knows the truth in this matter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    They might not even be friends now ... but your right she certainly knows...any help from her now could implicate him in a trafficking allegation that may have been part of her and Epstein collaboration together.

    Post edited by cap.in.hand. on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    She was of legal age in the UK though so it is really down to was she trafficked specifically.

    Legal age for consentual sex but in the UK people have to be over 18 for sex work so that's tricky for PA as well given that she alleges that she was paid by Maxwell /Epstein. Even more tricky now that Maxwell has been now been convicted of trafficking and sexual exploitation of minors and is awaiting sentencing.

    No matter what the outcome of this, Andrew's reputation will be in tatters and he will be pretty much shunned by most - especially since the Royals have cut him loose. I don't think he'll stay in England after this, especially after his sole ally in the family, his mother dies.



  • Posts: 9,106 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is a bizzare article- has the appearance like Andrew sending out his troop of loyal followers to do his battle for him- as for the picture, my understanding is that the FBI has the original.

    Ive never put much faith in the photo in proving anything either way- either they had sex or they didn’t- he could well have posed for a photo and then went home and just forgot about it -a photo doesn’t prove anything per se.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10467497/Prince-Andrews-ex-Lady-Victoria-Hervey-44-says-Ghislaine-Maxwells-trial-witch-hunt.html



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    I wonder did he do the NN interview to appease the queen..his mother ...in a very public display... If she were to justify her bankrolling a costly defence because the proceedings against him were not going to go away...it was hardly for the general public hoping they'd have sympathy for the situation he found himself through his association with maxwell/Epstein



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