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Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    They will probably be unable to veto it for unproductive workers as the unions will want everyone to be treated the same. So its probably easier to get everyone back into the office.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    3 and 2 in either mix will suit some and 4 and 1 will suit others and 5 either way will suit others and like anything else it'll be a case of individuals working out what is agreeable to all in their own context, there'll be no one solution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,306 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Well that didn't seem like a sensible move tbh. It was always likely there would be at least a partial return to the office.

    Location move is totally different.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    if 98% of our workforce in the CS are 25-65 then what % would we expect to see in that last 11 years?

    round or about 28% I'd suggest but not I'm not a mathematician.

    promotion is not slow, but for seven years post 2008 it was alright. there's been a burst since and the working of PAS and internal competitions do surely require you build a broad base and learn the ropes of how to approach forms/interviews. but I know plenty of HEOs, APs under 40, for instance, and AOs probably don't even average that age- these are solid middle management grades to be at at that age imo and it's not that difficult to get there with a few breaks, some ability, decent application.


    anyway, you cant both warn against a retirement cliff and say there's no opportunities- the former will drive the latter, twas always this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    It'll become interesting when Departments want to access specialist skills and hire someone who doesn't live near the workplace and wants fully (or mostly) remote working.

    They'll either have to start giving more than remote access than originally desired and the precedent is made, or they'll perhaps cut off their nose to spite their face and say no to hold the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,927 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    My move was long before Covid was a cell in a petri dish so wfh wasn't ever on the horizon.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We've lost four out of fifteen already to the private sector, to full time remote working, because they didn't want to come back to Dublin and 100% remote working is not on the table. These were not junior staff, and believe me, we're already feeling their loss badly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Not to mention the specialized areas such as ICT where jobs are a plenty at the moment and the money is crazy in the private sector compared to the public sector. There isn't a steady amount of new entrants suitably qualified or skilled banging at the door to get into these positions.

    In short the Government really have to take the lead here and show that they plan on implementing a fully remote working model in the civil service if staff want it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    I would say the main issue with ICT type staff is that the CS/PS insists on bringing them in at some grade like EO/AO, then moving along with increments. It wouldn't be attractive to most tech people to be perfectly honest. I have always negotiated a salary and yearly increase. I don't think it is necessarily due to full time remote working availability, most tech companies won't have that either. The types of things that the CS can offer, like job security just aren't the things that tech people are looking for. That's before you even get into the culture and the type of work. The OPW paid some staff double expenses because they still use a paper based system rather than a phone app as everyone else has been using for the last decade!




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    Offices these days either work 9-5.30 if lucky, hours seem to be 9-6 or 8.30 to 5.30 due to American company influence - 9-5 is long gone



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You seem like a sufferer of Stockholm syndrome.

    Instead of asking why everywhere isn't more like your place, ask why your place isn't more like everywhere else. You are bemoaning the fact that you have to work 9 to half 5, if you're lucky. Possibly longer. And you appear to be happy for others to be forced to do that, without being adequately rewarded, instead of rejoicing in the fact that the more this becomes the norm, the more chance you have of getting those hours yourself.

    And besides, your post doesn't negate the point being made by the previous poster. People had their contracts and terms of employment, including their wages, hours and conditions, unilaterally changed for the worst. It is an absolute farce that it has taken so long for this to be rectified. If you think it's such a handy number, then there's no shortage of comps up on public jobs to get your teeth into.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    WFH isn't anywhere in your terms and conditions though is it? Perhaps your employer should also be concerned about unilaterally changing your conditions for the better without getting anything in return for it? Maybe its best for the CS to stick with old practices like tea breaks and half an hour to cash a pay cheque.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,306 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    That half an hour thing to lodge a cheque is long gone I am pretty sure....plus I think it was 15 minutes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    I know its gone, it took us having to call in the IMF to get rid of it. Not exactly a sign of a modern and dynamic CS, more one that is stuck well in the past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,306 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    I don't know when it officially went, but I literally don't know anyone who used it when it was available. My guess is unions would have fought it removal like they for most things (for good and bad).

    CS/PS has its issues no doubt, but the non modern and dynamic thing varies massively by department.

    In the ICT area the CS/PS is massively hamstrung by low wages compared to the private sector, specialist panels etc are a relatively new thing and are limited as well. This leads to being over reliant on contractors and a lack of investment in their own resources.


    Anyway back on topic. Hopefully the option of blended working/wfh is available to anyone who has proven themselves capable of doing so over the last 2 years. I have a team of 5 and would have no issue with my team working from home, they have shown themselves to work just as hard and productively outside of an office environment.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It was stopped for new entrants in 2003 (only 19 years ago!) and for everyone else in 2010!

    But sure, there is no telling some people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    I know when it was removed. It was amazing that it still existed in 2010.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,306 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    So it was gone 12 years ago...and 19 years for new entrants.

    I literally know no one who used it.... I don't think it should be used as a stick to beat everyone who works in PS/CS.

    As I said in my other post, unions fight for everything (both in a good and bad way imo).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So if you already knew, why are you bringing it up now? Over a decade later for most, and in some cases, nearly two decades?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    It shows the resistance to change in the CS/PS and the type of mentality like @Flinty997 has where someone who does nothing should be put on some sort of meaningless task rather than actually deal with the issue.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    be good if the usual suspects who know nothing about the public sector other than what they heard their uncle spout while drunk in the 80s could leave us to discuss the thread topic as pertains to our actual employment



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Same every time. Ill-informed knee-jerkers jump in with two feet, spouting off about something from donkeys years ago. That banking time, by the way, was another condition removed without any compensation for it.

    You're right, it wasn't. And now it will be brought into law for pretty much everyone, not just civil servants.

    Do you agree that any/all employers should be able to just change your contract when it suits them?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What it shows is your resistance to accept that the civil service has changed massively over the last 20 years.

    Probably best to let the civil servants discuss issues that are relevant and actually apply in 2022.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭billyhead


    I think the general civil service wide guidance will possibly be 3 days in and 2 remote.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They are also going to have to look at how these patterns will affect worksharers - I can see that getting complicated.

    I know I've been asked by a worksharer doing a split week 3/2 if it meant they would be back in "full time" the way they were pre-covid or will it be pro-rata, somehow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    This is the nub of it. If there was the opportunity to veto it for an employee missed deadlines repeatedly and failed to answer emails in a timely way it would fix a lot of issues and probably be an incentive for people to raise their performance.

    But there isn't, and there won't be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7 martysparty


    Is this a problem that you are aware of (people missing deadlines, not answering emails etc)? Just curious if its an issue as its not something I've heard happening. And if it is an issue why don't line managers sort it out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 Abcdefg1234567


    Has there been any indication when the blended work policy will be published? I've to go back to the office next week and my concern is the longer I'm in, the harder it will be to get out again



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Have you been told to go back full time?

    We were told today that we don't have to go back in immediately, and that any return will be staggered and cautious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 Abcdefg1234567


    No, two days initially but I'm worried it will increase to full time very quickly



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 170 ✭✭Shuffl_in


    Leo Varadkar: “We’d intend to have this legislated before the summer recess and certainly in place this year.”


    God knows when. I'm sure they'll get us back full time for a few months to remind us that's the 'norm'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 Abcdefg1234567


    I thought Leo's comment was in relation to the "Right to request remote work" legislation, and not the CS blended work policy? I assumed they were two different things entirely, or am I being completely daft?

    I thought the blended policy was supposed to be implemented by April 1st? Summer is way too long to wait!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    Yes, very familiar! All you can do as a manager in the CS is chase up and remind, and once the zoom call is over, they can just ignore you again. Or if you email (as everything needs to be a paper trail) they just ignore it. HR won't let you start a PIP in case it ends up in the WRC and even if you do, it will still end up in the WRC and the employee plays the stress / bullying card and the manager gets the heat.

    In the private sector it's fine, as there is a clear consequence of missed deadlines and emails - demotion, dismissal etc. or bonus foregone at the very least, so the line manager can say "deadlines need to be met or X" - in the CS all you can say is "deadlines need to be met.... no, wait, what do you mean, I'm not bullying you". In short - there are no consequences in the CS so managers are powerless, and it's not the managers fault it's the system and culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    That banking time, by the way, was another condition removed without any compensation for it.

    What compensation would have been fair? "You took away my 30 minutes to go to the bank and cash my cheque!" "Yeah, and we stopped paying you by cheque - your wages go directly into your bank account now, and you have an ATM card, so..."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 170 ✭✭Shuffl_in


    I assume that at the end of the day they're one and the same. Though I concede it may be me that's daft. I'll hope you're right.


    We've been told we're back in two days a week from Monday. I expect this will increase shortly after.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It was supposed to be implemented by Q2, but then the numbers went up, everyone was told to work from home again, and threw a spanner in those works.

    Its two steps forward, one step back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    I've successfully completed a PIP. It depends on HR on how strong they are. All the WRC do is ensure due proccess was followed. If it was then not much can be done.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There was no resistance to the removal of the banking half hour by staff, its just something that gets dragged up to be thrown into our faces every now and again.

    But my Dept did have staff still being paid by cheque in 2010! Some staff refused to give their bank details for EFT!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    Yeah, I think it's just hit and miss with HR and whether they want an easy life themselves or not. In a lot of cases, it's taking the easiest option rather than the right option. Good to know it can happen in some cases though!



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    civil service blended working is a separate thing to the legislation covering right to request remote working



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Find out who the Lead Worker Representative for your Dept is, and ask them what way your Dept is leaning. Some depts are much more resistant to the idea of blended working than others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Word from my dept. today is one day a week from next week. Two days a week from end of feb.


    They have reiterated however that blended working will be adopted.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think that this was the plan for a staged return to work before Omicron hit us in a wave, so it should probably be viewed as a mere resumption of that approach.


    I think that various departments will adopt various approaches between then and the agreement/implementation of blended working, and while you will be able to read to an extent the attitude of each department's management board in the interim period, the policy will at that stage lead to a much more uniform approach.

    if not, the departments/units/teams (depending on where discretion sits in each dept) that restrict WFH are going to start bleeding staff very quickly indeed- with mobility now well established and certain skillsets in particular both in high demand and well suited to a wfh approach, managers will simply see this as a bargaining tool to snap up the people they want.

    long before the WRC hammers home the right to work from home on a reasonable basis (and if you haven't run into trouble in the past 2 years, that's a slam-dunk case) the departments that drag their feet on this will be feeling the pain- now i dont think like an ASEC thinks but for the life of me if that's not obvious to anyone they must have a serious set of blinkers on them

    I wonder how they will manage to screw this up all the same- can't believe that all departments will allow themselves to be held back by the few noteworthy foot-draggers (like happened when no consensus could be found last year on a policy)

    All of the above can be reasoned without reference to luddite public sector workers, management who hate their teams, lazy workers getting away with murder. it's very simple to pick a path through the actual issues that will come into play without sounding like a crank.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    might have been optimistic.....few depts seem to be pretending they've never heard of WFH in the plans sent out so far for return to work....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    Do you mean some Depts are expecting a full return to the office? From my understanding, it's phased return now while discussions are ongoing about blended options.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    phased yes but the (not explicit but phased until date X) implication seems murkily suggestive of "beyond date X what's the problem?"


    the unions would want to be doing more than sending out email updates on this one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭BOHSBOHS


    Some departments have already issued plans for 3 days a week in office by mid march with no mention of wfh options.. some have issued nothing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,492 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You mean the unions who were asleep at the wheel agreeing to a 1% a year pay deal? Don't hold your breath for Forsa to do anything useful. We're looking at what is in effect a 10% pay cut after inflation between 2021 and 2023.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,084 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    3 days in the office - implicitly the other 2 days are wfh, surely?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Early days yet but It may be playing out as I feared. The more time passes from the lifting of restrictions, the higher the chance of token WFH being introduced to tick a box.

    And the civil service is, in general, more forward thinking and organised than the rest of the public service.

    I was just reading some stuff from a remote working advocate called Chris Herd. If he's even half right, private sector companies that refuse to embrace remote working (where possible and where their competitors have) will be in trouble, just like those who refused to embrace computers or ecommerce were.

    Re: computers and the internet, I worked in the public service in the mid 00s and the refusal to utilise technology was absurd at the time and seems even more so looking back. Staff not allowed to use the internet as "they'll just doss". Printing and filing multiple copies of emails. Memos and copies of memos for the most mundane things. Requiring 4 copies of job application forms and refusing to accept applications by email (was still happening in Feb 2020) A mountain of paper generated and very difficult to find anything in it as time passes.

    Officious nonsense which requires a certain official mindset which also requires....an office. An office full of filing cabinets with "typists" sitting at their desks i.e. a bureacratic dinosaur's wet dream.



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