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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    That is kind of you 😀

    I'd encourage you to do some reading/thinking about the implications of climate change though. As I said above, rising sea levels are the least of the concerns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Im talking about a fair sized town in North Dublin though. 2 cars and a van.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,069 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The climate catastrophists are spouting manure. We know this from the history and the consequences of the Mediaeval and Roman warm periods and that earlier one, I forget the name of. We know from the Paleological and geological records that the planet is generally more amenable to life when it is warmer than the present. The real and documented threat to humanity is colder conditions, like the Dark Ages and the little ice age and glaciation events.

    Rapidly rising CO2 and temperature together with the AMOC current in the Atlantic slowing and stopping are historic events that at multiple times in the past, all occured more or less simultaneously, as they are now. These events are usually harbingers of the onset of new periods of glaciation, not ever increasing temperature rises.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,863 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Well, my last car lasted 12 years, so I assumed you were dealing with something similar.

    If you are changing your car every couple of years, again there is no affordability issue for you, so why you are so down on the greens I don't know.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭quokula


    You're reading way too much into that. 83% of the USA's population live in cities, 75% of Europe's, 64% of China's and 92% of Japan's. All of those numbers are greater than the 60% of emissions you quote. Of course globally rural populations are much larger in poorer and developing nations where emissions are much lower than heavily industrialised nations. This does not mean someone in Ireland living in a large one off rural house that drives their diesel everywhere and requires any goods they consume to be taken a much further distance off the beaten track is magically generating fewer greenhouse gases than someone living in a city who walks or takes public transport everywhere and shares amenities and infrastructure with a huge number of other people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭dePeatrick


    I was a green way back in the 80’s in Germany, I have read and thought more about climate change than you will ever. The climate is changing, it always have and always will. We adapt and change with it as we have always done but are in a better position to do so than we ever have been. Am I concerned, not in the slightest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    Edit: Ah, I see this point has been answered far better above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    Here's the thing: climate scientists know all that - and maybe even more than you do about this history of the global climate. Yet 97% of these trained scientists arrive at a different conclusion to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    I would love to hear your thoughts on how we are in a much better position to deal with it. I'm always looking for good news on this topic.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik



    And now the added bonus of a rake of tax to be taken in the name of climate change. We would be a very environmentally aware family ever since I was a child, but im getting to the point now where im goign to say fcuk the environment, its just a con to take money out of peoples pockets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    But the risk of cancellation is great is it not. People are now saying what they are expected by the masses to say. There is no such thing as independent thought on certain subjects anymore.

    You wont see a study get funded to see if they can debunk climate change or even parts of it.

    First of all you wont get anyone to risk participating in it.

    Secondly, if they did, their careers would be over should they get results that go against the mob.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭SlowBlowin



    Well it does show that there is not much choose between them in terms of pollution, with some posters saying how much greener city living is you would expect to see a marked difference in the data, but its not there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0



    The Medieval warm period was not a global phenomenon. It was balanced by cooling in other areas of the planet. There was no increase in the global average temperature. The temperature reduced during the little ice age, and was back at the same average temperature as during the Medieval warm period by the mid 20th century. It is now about 0.75 degrees above the medieval warm period temperature.

    There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Roman warm period resulted in the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Drought and a reduction in food production caused and coupled with migrations and invasions from outside the empire to bring about its downfall.

    The threats from climate change are not threats to the existence of life on earth. They are threats to the balance of life and placement of life to which we are accustomed. It's fine to say that climate change will result in Siberia or Northern Canada having a much more hospitable climate, and that they will be able to support more life, but there aren't people there to take advantage of it. There will be a migration of people required for that.

    The second question is that even if there is greater food production in some areas, will there be enough extra in those areas to offset the areas that are no longer productive? Will there be enough food production to satisfy the projected global population? Looking at past history shows that if you increase the temperature of an area sufficiently, that area is incapable of supporting life. Are these extra desert areas going to outweigh the increased land area available in other areas?

    The atmospheric CO2 levels at the times you are referencing were far below the current levels. If you want to say that by looking at history then everything will be ok, then you have to have something in history that corresponds to the current situation. There hasn't been an occasion in history that has had CO2 levels rising at the rate of rise we have seen in the last 50 years. We are also reducing the areas that the planet has to sequester CO2 through deforestation and over-exploitation of the oceans. What we don't know is what the point is where the Earth moves from a negative feedback loop where it attempts to correct the atmospheric CO2 level and temperature to a positive feedback loop where the actions of the Earth increase the amount of CO2 (e.g. by releasing the CO2 stored in permafrost) and therefore increasing the atmospheric temperature.

    Earth will survive everything humans can throw at it, but the question is will the actions of humans create an environment that is not capable of sustaining human life at the level we either currently have or are projected to have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭LillySV



    how are cycling groups getting to spout what they think to committees deciding about planning? Not qualified like most of the committee I bet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    Hard disagree on this one. If you want success and recognition in the sciences, you don't produce the 10,000th study confirming the consensus - you find something new, and you prove it. If there are any big holes in the current consensus on climate change, smart and ambitious researchers are highly incentivised to find them. If your data is sound, and your work passes peer review and is reproducible, you will not be cancelled - you will be hailed as a hero.

    The picture we see at the moment is that the consensus keeps on adding new supporting evidence, and nothing has emerged in the last 20 years to credibly challenge that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    They've been invited by the committee. The committee are meeting to discuss urban regeneration, and when discussing anything, the method used by our elected officials is to ask people who think there should be a change to explain why they think there should be a change. You open it up to scrutiny, and then the committee have their own private discussions where they consider the evidence they've been presented with. On urban regeneration, their position is that removing vehicles from the town centre and enabling active travel will have positive benefits. On a personal note, I've been in towns in other countries where the town centre was pedestrianised and there was a train and bus station and car parks situated at the edges of the pedestrianised area. It was a much nicer shopping experience, and was much better for sitting outside a coffee shop having coffee and a sandwich and reading. Last year, when we weren't allowed to eat inside, I tried sitting outside restaurants having lunch. It is distinctly unappealing to eat your lunch with a diesel truck (or even a car) sitting idling in traffic a meter two from you.

    Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it), the committee doesn't actually get to make any decisions about planning. Regulatory decisions either come from the houses of the Oireachtas or directly from the minister, depending on what the regulation is, and gets implemented by trained professional planners in the County Councils or An Bord Pleanala. The committee does get to talk about it and make lots of statements that will gain them attention from their supporters/opposition and claim their expenses.

    This disconnect around planning has come as historically our elected officials have shown themselves to be not above taking an envelope full of cash in exchange for sorting out planning permission for someone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    People don't fall into single categories - your average person is not just a cyclist or just a motorist. Most people walk places, and drive, and take public transport, and cycle. Most adult cyclists are likely to be drivers too.

    I haven't cycled for years, but when I did I also drove and took public transport. You have a very different perspective on things when you are one of the cyclists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Thats the thing the majority of people living in the countryside don't live in 'large' houses. The majority live in mediocre bungalows or similar, old board of health houses or done up old labourers cottages. As for cars - I reckon there's as many petrol cars as urban areas. And remember goods are transported from rural areas and between urban areas for distribution and consumption. And yes people living in urban areas also have cars both diesel and petrol and drive to their local shop but yes also use the much better public transport which is subsidised by everyone in the country both urban and rural.

    People in rural areas also share amenities and infrastructure or in many cases simply don't have them or pay for them themselves as opposed to those amenities and infrastructure used in urban areas but paid at least in part by people who will never get to use them. It's simply swings and roundabouts. Using stereotypes doesn't help.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,621 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Cutting car parking spaces is a good idea - using it as a stick to beat drivers with is not.

    Car parking spaces are criminally inefficient uses of valuable urban space - far more efficient to use that space for provision of mass transit/cycling/pedestrian space. However not owning a car at all is totally unfeasible for the vast majority of people in this country. Just because I could get a bus to work doesnt mean I could use the bus to go for hikes up mountains, or surfing or other activities.

    Cutting car use is fine, but cutting car ownership is a separate and altogether more sinister issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,069 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The Mediaeval warm period was not confined to Europe. More climate scientist efforts to write an inconvenience out of the record.

    East Asian warm season temperature variations over the past two millennia

    "followed by a multi-century long cooling period and again a warm interval covering the 900–1200 CE period (Medieval Climate Anomaly, MCA)."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26038-8

    Medieval Temperature Trends in Africa and Arabia

    "Lüning et al. correlated and synthesized the findings of 44 published paleotemperature case studies from across the region and mapped the resulting trends of the anomaly’s central period, which lasted from about 1000 to 1200 C

    To better characterize temperature fluctuations in Africa and Arabia during medieval times, researchers synthesized paleotemperature records from across the region, including the Tanzanian portion of Lake Tanganyika (pictured here). A core from this lake represents one of the few medieval paleotemperature reconstructions that are available from the East Africa Rift. Credit: Andreas31, CC BY-SA 3.0

    The results indicate that the majority of onshore Afro-Arabian sites experienced warming during the Medieval Climate Anomaly."

    https://eos.org/research-spotlights/medieval-temperature-trends-in-africa-and-arabia

    Climate and Culture Change in North America AD 900–1600

    "During the first century of the new millennium, the surface temperature in the Northern Hemisphere rapidly increased and continued to warm western Europe, the North Atlantic, and the southern temperate zone of North America."

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7560/737419

    Evidence of the Medieval Warm Period in Australia, New Zealand and Oceania

    By Sebastian Lüning

    Effects of the Little Ice Age on Asia, Africa and the Americas:

    Little Ice Age wetting of interior Asian deserts and the rise of the Mongol Empire

    "indicating that wetter-than-present conditions characterized the core of the inner Asian desert belt during the Little Ice Age,"

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277379115301542

    The Little Ice Age and medieval warming in South Africa

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230751443_The_Little_Ice_Age_and_medieval_warming_in_South_Africa

    The Effects of the Little Ice Age (c. 1300-1850)

    http://www.science.smith.edu/climatelit/the-effects-of-the-little-ice-age/

    Your claim that the Mediaval warm period and little ice age were local regional events only, is demonstrably garbage.

    The Roman warm period, Mediaeval warm period and little ice age, are all reflected in lake bed sediments in Alaska:

    "In discussing their findings, Hu et al. remark that "the warmth before AD 300 at Farewell Lake coincides with a warm episode extensively documented in northern Europe," i.e., the Roman Warm Period, "whereas the AD 600 cooling is coeval with the European 'Dark Ages'." They also say that "the relatively warm climate AD 850-1200 at Farewell Lake corresponds to the Medieval Climatic Anomaly," which they describe as "a time of marked climatic departure over much of the planet." And they say that "these concurrent changes suggest large-scale teleconnections in natural climatic variability during the last two millennia, likely driven by atmospheric controls." http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/rwpnortham.php

    I didn't suggest past warmings during the current Holocene were accompanied by elevated CO2, I referenced that to events during the current ice age that presaged glaciation events. To suggest atmospheric CO2 levels have never been as high as they are presently is to lie.

    Untitled Image




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,069 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,598 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Not everybody lives in a so called McMansion in rural Ireland, but you do appear to have a terrible chip on your shoulder due to people being able to afford to build decent accommodation for themselves and their families in rural Ireland, and being able to pass it on to the next generation rather than in some featureless box where they will be gouged renting for the rest of their lives. Your posts come across as are more to do with jealousy than any concern for the planet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,863 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    My motivations don't matter if what I post is true, your only defence is to question my motivations.

    The problems of dispersed settlement are obvious and clear, criticising posters who raise these issues is a strawman defence.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sure, you could do that, many have been claiming this for years around boards.

    But choose carefully as its getting harder and harder to find any place that hasn't applied carbon related taxes, levies, duties, etc to encourage a shift towards more sustainable options. Most that haven't applied them yet have plans to do so within the next 2-3 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭quokula


    But the data does show that. The data you linked essentially just looks at the fact that industrialised countries have more city dwellers, and industrialised countries have higher emissions, therefore cities must have higher emissions.

    If you actually compare like for like in one country you see a far different picture. Here's a BBC article debunking the claim that cities are worse, which actually looks at UK data and shows that 53 of the 63 biggest cities in the UK all have lower emissions per capita than the average.

    Or here's a list of carbon emissions by US state:

    The states with the lowest emissions per capita (NY, Maryland, California) are all well above the american average for urbanisation. The states with the most emissions per capita (Wyoming, North Dakota, West Virginia) are all well below that average.

    That's skipping over places like DC and Puerto Rico which aren't technically states, but are also amongst both the highest urbanisation and lowest emission regions of the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,863 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    What a complete load of nonsense.

    Address the argument that village and town living is far better for the environment than the McMansions ruining our countryside and put your preconceived pejorative notions about the motivations of posters aside.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ”don’t look up, don’t look up”…..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,598 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Some countries are doing quite well economically out of this greening. China are already the worlds major suppliers of solar panels and now from your post appear poised to do likewise with EV`s.

    I imagine for a country that generates almost 60% of it`s energy from burning coal, (which year on year is over 50% of all coal burned worldwide) and are planning to build more coal burning plants, using a cheap energy source that is so frowned upon by greens is a major factor when it comes to having an economic competitive edge. I find it a bit amazing that greens do not appear to have a problem with the many questionable environmental practices and energy sources used to provide many of these greening products they so much crave



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