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Air Corps SAR

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Maybe this a top secret plan by the navy to sneak past the air corps to get there hands on the helicopters they always wanted



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I shall very much enjoy the attempted landing of a Sikorsky 72 on a Lake Class FPC.

    (incidentally the Examiner had a confirmation yesterday that negotiations are happening between Ireland and New Zealand on acquiring the two Lake Class boats.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    This probably should be in the avaiation fourm but i seen this on etenders for the new coastguard contract.

    The elements of the Services which define the minimum requirements are the provision of three (3) helicopters and a fixed wing aircraft on standby for Coast Guard aviation tasking. 

    Are we losing a Base and helicopter?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    That does seem to be the case. Dublin has, for a while been considered surplus, there to deal with the hypothetical ferry disaster. However there has also been a realisation that such an event would be an "all-hands-on-deck" event anyway, and one extra heli in the mix wouldn't change much.

    At the same time Waterford Airport is struggling to remain open, but the Heli there is to cover the busy South East coast. So either The Waterford heli moves to Dublin permanently, or the Dublin heli goes.

    The fixed wing requirement is clearly written for a Casa MPA type. Search Radar, Flir, etc. I can't see a civvy operator providing that one. (unless they leased a CASA MPA or similar) The ability to launch liferafts is rarely seen in standard patrol aircraft.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Any chance the air corps have managed to swing government to there side and a 139 cover the east coast. That would account for 1 less helicopter. Cant see waterford losing a helicopter after the protests last time. The contract is for 800 million taking inflation in to account thats a lot for 3 helicopters and a plane



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Could the AC sustain both the medical coverage and a SAR cover at the same time?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,614 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭danoriordan1402


    Saw that happening out the back window - cracking pic from the fire brigade lads below : No chance getting a patient down the stairs here.

    https://twitter.com/CorkCityFire



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    They could, but don't have the airframes to do anything else, and are running out of cycle hours far quicker than was planned, and wouldn't have spare machines to train crew or take one out of service for major maintenance.. Decision time for the AW139 is going to come much sooner than planned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'd have thought airframe issues were barely consequential next to the problem with Pilots. Not just now, but the pipeline of same into the future.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I'm sure then the replacement will be another balls up given past history...



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Civvies have operated SAR fixed wing aircraft for decades; have a look at the Swedish coasties as an example. Dropping dinghies or flares is not so difficult that a mere civvy can't do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    No doubt about that, but it seems to be written in such a manner to invite the Air Corps to throw their hat in the ring, if they really want to be involved in SAR.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If there is only going to be one helicopter for the east coast that will leave south of belfast to waterford to be covered by one machine. I know the north techncially is not our problem but there appears to be an SLA of somesorts in place to cover it. So it will be very interesting to see which base gets chopped.

    If the fixed wing is wrote for the air corps could the two 235's be kept for that role or would an extra aircraft have to be got?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    NI is Covered by UK HM Coastguard from Wales & Scotland & IRCG from Sligo & Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thats not possible without Department of Defence leading the effort.

    The Air Corps are not endowed with the executive competences to unilaterally and independently make a submission like that.

    It'd be like Dublin Fire Brigade answering a tender for the supply of firefighting services in some random location on the far side of the EU. They don't control either their own budget or their own executive management and policy decisions.

    It's just not possible or legal.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    There is a provision within the contract to terminate the fixed wing element after three years if an agreement is reached between DoT and the Air Corps to provide that element of the service. If not, DoT can apply 2-3 year extensions over the remaining seven years to the fixed wing element of the contract.

    The number and location of bases is not set. I don't think the previous tender set the locations out either. It's for the tenderers to propose locations within the response and endurance times set out in the requirements.

    There is a provision to extend the entire contract or just individual bases for up to three years after the initial ten years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 spark23


    Would be enormously more efficient for everybody if third c295mpa purchased and sell c235mpa



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think someone posted here before there is something like a 3 year wait time for a casa 295 mpa



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Well, the current GOC is certainly making sure this doesn't go away as an issue.

    Can't imagine the CoS or the Department being thrilled with this intervention.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Got to say that article is full of crap. 35 million for 2 new helicopters? You sure as **** aren’t suggesting anything in the S92 range, let alone the costs of standing up new bases, and we all know that providing Top Cover has been an issue and the 2 new 295s aren’t enough if you want 24/7 coverage along with all other duties, and that’s not even touching on impact to army support and training if SAR is prioritised.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I Guess the GOC of the Air Corps like the Naval boss wont be getting any promotions!


    On the price issue they could buy 2 basic 139s for 20 million and have 15 million left over for SAR fit out

    Post edited by roadmaster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're absolutely right. In actual fact, to stand up an Air Corps SAR operation that mirrors the service currently in place from CHC under the existing contract, would be a €100 million job.

    The AW139 is not a match for the S-92 in kit or passenger capacity, both of which are requirements for the sort of offshore service our maritime SAR needs.

    The Air Corps would in fact have to acquire 4 medium / heavy helis like the S-92, H225 or NH90 (perish the thought), not just 2 additional 139s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I know the article says Cork or waterford but i think they have in the back of there head casement for 139s to cover the east coast. I believe the medical professionals made submissions for a smaller helicopter this time round so it could get in too the Mater as its the only trauma center on the east coast. ( ironacllly i think the tempoary heli pad in the mater now has sisk cabins on it!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Only in Ireland would it occur to someone to reduce the size of the helicopter rather than increase the size of the effing pad...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Strange that some people in positions of authority in the Air Corps don't actually like the whole military thing at all, and would far prefer to be doing civilian flying, competing with civilian contractors.

    Any other Military air arm doing SAR with declared assets do so because they have the spare aircraft they can dedicate to the task, but normal military flying still continues.

    With the Air Corpse in its current state, a return to being a dedicated SAR asset would end any hope of military flying, and they can dig the old navy flying suit out of the wardrobe again and drop any pretence..



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Air Corpse indeed.

    However, I think there may be a bit more to it than that. I wonder myself if Air Corps senior officers are looking at the writing on the wall, more than a few mentions in recent years of a Defence Force integration project which would leave the Navy and Air Corps under a unified command, akin to the US Coastguard structure and where they as the smaller and less powerful service would become the hind tit of a Navy dominated command. An air support service under an enhanced Flag Officer position, perhaps a Rear Admiral.

    Existential threats make people do uncharacteristic things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Pc12s and Helicopters to the Army

    And

    Casas to the navy and let the guards get private operator for there aircraft



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




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