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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    HRT + orchidectomy would be standard enough.

    This was what you said.

    Orchidectomy would count as surgery in the paper/table I posted. The range was 5-13%, which I wouldn't really call standard enough but YMMV.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Yeah fair enough, I did make it sound like a higher amount were having orchi surgery. Wasn't my intention, also late for me. My main point was regarding medical transition. i.e. it's still a fairly decent commitment and not just changing gender for medals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭plodder


    "Particularly in the US, where sporting ability is often tied to college scholarships and so on."

    In the Lia Thomas case it was interesting that when some of her team-mates raised the issue with their coach, he was said to be "obsessed with winning" and had "boasted of changing the team's losing culture" back in 2016. What better, legal way to do that? I think it's very naive to think sports people and coaches won't exploit all legal avenues open to them, considering they will often go beyond what is legal sometimes.

    At the Olympics, the requirement for surgery was dropped in 2015, probably too late for Rio. So, 2020 was really the first opportunity to see transgender athletes at the Olympics who had a relatively straightforward path into women's sport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,363 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Regarding the OP. If this was a transgender Man beating other men in a Men's athletics or swimming event, then she might have had the nugget of a point, but the fact that this athlete identifies as male and still competed in the women's class is a good indicator that this talented athlete did not feel competitive against the Men in his area



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne



    As far as I'm aware, Thomas' previous wins were in longer distance races, where male biological advantage would be greater, and most likely what Thomas specialises in.

    I'm sure if Haile Gebrselassie or Sebastian Coe had run 100m and 200m races against women Olympians, they'd have been handily beaten too.

    There are always going to be edge cases, but as a whole, sport should be separated by sex, as that is by far the biggest factor when it comes to performance levels.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    As the OP I have to say that is a leap that could win gold - sadly disqualified as being incorrect.

    The winner - he has a name it's Iszac Henig - has yet to undergo ANY hormonal treatment therefore is currently 100% biologically female. Which is made clear in the OP but here is another article that also makes it clear:


    As Henig has only, as he terms it, "socially" transitioned he would not be allowed to compete against men.

    Whether or not his decision is avoid hormonally transitioning at this time because he fears he would get hammered if competing against men is the topic for another thread.

    The point of this thread is that a transgender woman with a proven record was beaten by a 100% biologically female competitor.

    And some comments about a bloke could or could not beat Katie Taylor, transgender women apparently have an advantage which means the death of women's sports (all women's sports it seems - gymnastics should be interesting). And the usual guff about "protecting women's spaces".

    Women with naturally occurring testosterone don't count as women apparently even when that is the gender assigned to them at birth, and the one they identify as, they are dismissed as intersex - no-one has any idea how many men are intersex or have increased oestrogen levels and the natural advantage this can give in certain sports. It aids bone and muscle mass, rapid healing, and stamina. Oestrogen is described as a power hormone. Men aren't tested.

    Much was made of Hubbard - a transgender women competing in the Olympics in weightlifting where some commentators here were convinced she would win (she didn't.) Ironically, no-one mentioned that a side effect of taking anabolic steroids - once the drug of choice for weightlifters -is an increase in oestrogen (to such an extent males using it can develop breasts). Hubbard was competing against people who have naturally occurring high levels of this power hormone which builds adolescent bodies designed to carry a developing fetus inside for 9 months and then endure the physical demands of labour - i.e strong, with a hell of a lot of stamina.

    Zero consideration is given to the possibility that female hormones impart their own advantages, the existence of these hormones in biologically male bodies is not tested so their effect on athletic performance in elite male athletes is not monitored.

    The narrative being put forward is that a male body is in every way superior to a female body when it comes to sports. All sports apparently. Even when that male body has has been taking 'female' hormones it retains this superiority. Therefore someone born biologically male will always beat someone born biologically female.

    That is demonstrably not correct.



  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭ChickenDish


    So a woman wins a woman's race? Why the debate? Its irrelevant what she identifies as, the fact is she is a woman. That being said I do not know her or will ever meet her, nor would I dispute what she identifies as with her in person. If I did I'd quiet happily respect her wishes and treat her as a man.

    My while take is ill never intentionally insult a person, ill recognise them how they wish to be recognised, but this will never change the facts. Just because I identify as Brad Pitt, doesn't change the fact I'm not.

    * I referred to her as a female not through malice, but simply because she hasn't transitioned yet and we are talking about a female competing in a woman's race.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    He identifies as male but as he hasn't begun hormonal transition is still biologically female according to the rules of the sport he is participating in.

    To refer to him as her at this point is not respectful as he has made it clear he identifies as male and has had some, not performance influencing, surgical procedures.

    Legal recognition of transitioning in the US varies from state to state but afaik it is rare that it as as relatively straight forward as Self ID in Ireland.

    Henig has self ID'd - In Ireland he would be considered a man under our laws and his ability to compete in a women's race would be doubtful (I am not familiar with the laws regulating swimming here so I say doubtful rather than forbidden)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,128 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You're right. Men hold the records by a significant distance in pretty much every sport cause women just don't try hard enough



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Do those men have naturally high levels of oestrogen? Are they inter-sex?

    Oh wait - no one knows as men aren't tested.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Yes exactly.

    I often see people say "they shouldn't be discriminated against as they are women!"

    If they are born into the wrong body, then that should be classed as a disability. You're not exactly the same through the unfortunate chance of you being born into the wrong body. Just like someone with no legs can't run in a 100 metre sprint.

    The whole "transgender woman is the exact same as a regular woman" is just not true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭ChickenDish


    I've already stated that should I meet them personally I'd respect their wishes, but your wokism conveniently ignored that.

    When the person transitions and is legally recognised as male, competes in male sports, only then is there a meaningful discussion to be had. The facts are the person is biologically female taking part in a female sport.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    "wokism"


    Ok.


    That tells me your position so we'll leave it there.

    My "wokism" is that it is respectful to refer to people by the pronouns they use to identify themselves, all the time - not just to their face.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,644 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Hubbard deliberately threw the lifts.


    He was in his 40s when he went to the Olympics.

    He also was out of the sport for many years and had suffered serious injuries in a crash.


    Despite all that he qualified.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Reckon Peacock, Pistorius, or any competitor in the Paralympic races would beat the majority of people with two legs - disability or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,363 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm not trying to impart any narrative.

    From your OP, this athlete had surgery, but just not the hormone treatments, I am not aware of the specific rules around being entitled to compete in Mens swimming. I would imagine taking artificial testosterone would be more of a barrier due to doping regulations, is there any minimum testosterone requirement for a man to compete in Mens swimming?

    Did this athlete try to compete in the mens event and was refused, so he was forced to compete in the womans event instead?

    If the whole point of allowing trans women to compete in womens competitions is because they identify as women, then why is the reverse not applied, if you do not identify as a woman, you should not compete in the womens event?

    Has there been a single instance of a trans man asking to be taken out of a womens event and to compete in a mens event? And if so, how did they perform?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Gee, I must have missed the plethora of posts in the thread about Hubbard stating how she had no chance. They must have gotten lost amidst all the "unfair advantage" "end of women's sports" that filled the thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,363 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    But they are not allowed to compete in those races because their prosthetics are not equivalent to the human body. Sport has so many divisions and classes to make competition fair and, well, competitive



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    The search function is terrible on boards, but here's me from the Hubbard thread stating that she was unlikely to win.


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117635601/#Comment_117635601



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,128 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yes, you must have.

    Hubbard was never likely to win, she had taken a huge break from lifting, was never anything other than average over her career and was significantly older than the rest of the field. She had a massively unfair advantage which is why she was able to qualify in the first place, denying the place to someone else.

    Having an unfair advantage does not automatically mean you win. This is an incredibly simple concept.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    A similar thought struck me during the olympics, there was an article listing the various trans and non binary atheletes competing. Hubbard obviously got a mention but there were a few others too, and they all competed in the female categories even in cases where they identified as men.

    Why is there such an asymmetric approach, whereby only men compete in the men's category but the women's category is a catch all for all genders and none? Now the cynical answer is that it's easier to win at the women's level, but I'd love to hear the "official" explanation.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    They simply don't do gender tests on male athletes so there is no data. We do not know how many biologically male athletes conform to some hormonally an/or chromosomally based definition of "a man".

    Man's birth cert says he is a man - ok say the organisers.

    Woman's birth cert says she is a woman - well, we need to test you to be sure say the organisers.

    I shared earlier when over 300 elite athletes were tested for a study and it found that over 16% of the men have low levels of testosterone that put them on a level with the 13+% of the females who tested high. Basically over 1 in 10 in both genders had similar, naturally recurring, levels of testosterone. But to compete only women are tested.

    This has been the case since the 1936 Berlin Olympics.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Pistorius competed in The Olympics against people with two legs because he qualified.

    I wonder if anyone here will claim he took the place of a two legged person and should have stuck to competing only against his own kind?

    Plus the poster I responded to said "someone with no legs can't run in a 100 meter sprint".

    Can't run.

    There are actually competitive races where people with no legs run in 100 meter sprints.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Woke woke woke you say so often I, Not a Sir, am falling asleep with the utter predictability of your posts.

    I said it is polite and respectful to refer to a person by their preferred pronouns all the time, not "just to their face" - which means calling them what they do not prefer "behind their back".

    You imagined I said the rest.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,128 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Pistorius went through quite a long and complicated process, legally and with sports administration, to prove that his artificial legs did not give him an unfair advantage. He did not simply qualify.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Bannasidhe Man's birth cert says he is a man - ok say the organisers.


    Woman's birth cert says she is a woman - well, we need to test you to be sure say the organisers..


    Not true at all , female athletes raised concerns about one particular person who was competiting against them in events who happened to look and run like a male athlete ,

    Seems that they were right to raise concerns.

    Freak anomalies in biology is one thing but women deserve to compete in a Fair and level playing field ,not expected to compete with men looking to get famous for the wrong reasons



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    People have literally killed and maimed other people in order to win at sports. People have taken all manner of drugs and medical procedures to win at sports. Saying "I'm a woman", even taking testosterone blockers, to win at sports isn't even interesting in comparison the long list of things people have done to win at sports.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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  • Registered Users Posts: 679 ✭✭✭greyday


    Why do you think men are not tested?, this is very easy for you to answer.



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