"Green" policies are destroying this country

end of the road · 08-01-2022 11:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441579#Comment_118441579

on maintenence of the motor ways, slight up keep of the main/n roads and resurfacing of everything else certainly a lot more then that is spent.

all the new roads we need are more or less built but certainly the car didn't cover the cost.

Danno · 08-01-2022 11:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441640#Comment_118441640

Have you a source for your claim?

end of the road · 08-01-2022 11:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441647#Comment_118441647

yes, the amount of roads in the country.

the upkeep of them all definitely won't be cheap that is for sure.

08-01-2022 11:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441647#Comment_118441647

Well the budget for one. National and local government budgets to be precise.

In addition to

health costs from pollution and lack of exercise as well as RTI's
Policing and judicial costs associated with motoring
Environmental costs
Construction and maintenance

Etc etc etc

That's not to mention societal costs like lost productivity from traffic jams, unsafe streets for children, financial burdens through insurance, taxes, fuels, the aforementioned pollution through emissions, particulate matter and noise.

Take one project as an example, the GCRR, costed at around 600 million but likely closer to the 1 billion mark once its all said and done. If instead you took 200 million of that you get a far better return for far longer if invested in active travel and PT in Galway instead

Danno · 09-01-2022 12:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441668#Comment_118441668

So, no source then. Go figure.

Danno · 09-01-2022 12:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441746#Comment_118441746

€600m on the Galway bypass would represent 10% of one annual takings from the Irish motorist.

Try harder.

09-01-2022 12:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441891#Comment_118441891

Meh, if I thought spending a week to pull all the figures together for you would change your attitude I would but you and others have shown little movement despite being shown numerous studies and sources relating to active travel and PT in the past so there's no gain for me.

If I happen across sources or studies already compiled, I'll happily post them and have done so in the past.

But if you want to do the legwork yourself, lash ahead, the budgets are published on an annual basis

Danno · 09-01-2022 12:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442022#Comment_118442022

So, no source then. Go figure.

But plough on advocating for punitive taxes on the motorist with out any evidence to back it up.

09-01-2022 12:54AM

Danno, be careful. You'll be in for a kicking if you ever stray in to the Infrastructure sub-forum.

Danno · 09-01-2022 01:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442073#Comment_118442073

LOLs! I think I can handle a few tree-huggers, but thanks for the heads up!

09-01-2022 01:08AM

These fellows will just as happily lecture the farmers on animal husbandry, crop migration, leaving land fallow or rewetting bog as lecturing you on transportation policy. Don't believe me...then check out the Farming and Forestry forum.

Danno · 09-01-2022 01:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442130#Comment_118442130

And between them all they don't have two hands to wipe their own butts. But happy nonetheless to pontificate about how it should all be done.

I see alot of these types on Facebook, they haven't the gumptions to hide their holiday pictures from far flung places while lecturing you and me how our fifteen mile commute is killing the planet - yet their ski trip on a plane to Andorra is totally ignored.

end of the road · 09-01-2022 01:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441891#Comment_118441891

GO FIGURE NOTHING.

go figure nothing.

the car driver does not pay their full costs.

end of the road · 09-01-2022 01:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441901#Comment_118441901

the 6000000000 is not anywhere near the full contribution to all costs of the motorist so it's only 10% of a small contribution.

Danno · 09-01-2022 01:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442277#Comment_118442277

You sound angry.

end of the road · 09-01-2022 02:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442315#Comment_118442315

not at all.

quite happy out exposing the truth.

night night.

09-01-2022 03:24AM

Regarding particulate matter, Trinity Library are having to account for it from the passing traffic in their massive project as its building up on the old manuscripts and causing deterioration

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/07/trinity-college-dublin-begins-90m-project-to-relocate-vulnerable-books

Banana Republic 1 · 09-01-2022 09:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442437#Comment_118442437

The sooner the population understand pm and nox the better, unfortunately politicians have bent for lobbyists.

magicbastarder · 09-01-2022 11:39AM

let's say i take the claim at face value that €6bn is generated for the state by use of cars (and that's from a motor industry body, so i wouldn't call them an unbiased source); that's an average of ~€3k per car owner per annum.

but what people fail to remember is taxes are not a toll. i pay income tax, and i know it's for the running of the state; i don't and can't expect that the means by which the tax is levied is also the pot the taxes should be spent on.

i paid something like €600 or €700 property tax, this does not mean i have greater right to use the public library system than someone who didn't pay property tax, for example. so yes, you can argue that tax on motorists may be too high, but to suggest that motorists should be rewarded for paying that by removing non-motor tax paying punters from their way is laughable.

growleaves · 09-01-2022 11:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443012#Comment_118443012

You are right. Roads are paid for out of general taxation. Tax-payers pay for roads.

Fred Cryton · 09-01-2022 01:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314251#Comment_118314251

The problem with "climate change" is that even if you agree the Earth is warming slightly, the follow on questions are not so easy to answer:

1) what is the extent of the warming, how significant (huge variations in forecasts with wide range of probabilities assigned to each potential outcome). The models rely on differential equations which could very easily result in a case of garbage in, garbage out. The models from 1990 predicted "potential" sea level rises of 1m by 2020, in fact the rise has been 8cm.

2) Would Ireland be directly negatively affected by the warming, or just some south pacific islands with about 12 people living on them.

3) Even if you answer along the climate hysteria lines to questions 1 and 2, can anything be done about it without us going back to the stone age? (science is dubious about that)

4) Fundamentally, is the cost of all this climate hysteria (hundreds of billions of euro of direct costs and hundreds of billions more in lost potential economic output) greater than any potential cost of climate warming (perhaps the cost of a few sea walls for rising sea levels, few billion euros?)

end of the road · 09-01-2022 02:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442033#Comment_118442033

we have plenty of sources, but you are invalidating your own arguments for us all by yourself.

taxes on the motorist are not punative, they are just to pay for our costs.

end of the road · 09-01-2022 02:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442437#Comment_118442437

i wasn't aware of this, not good at all that things are so bad.

these books are part of the history of the country so hopefully this project will be a huge success and insure the ongoing protection of these historical and culturally significant items for the nation.

it will be a very delicate operation i should think.

RandomViewer · 09-01-2022 03:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443802#Comment_118443802

So why does the money go to Central taxation?

tom1ie · 09-01-2022 03:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443392#Comment_118443392

Well this is the thing.

We need to know the direct effects on Ireland due to climate change.

For example If the Greenland ice sheet melts due to warming temps, there’s an argument that the Gulf Stream will shut off and Ireland +Uk will actually get colder.

Theres just no definitive Guide that says if temp rises by x amount in y years then z will be the result in Ireland.

Not that I know of anyway.

RandomViewer · 09-01-2022 03:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443841#Comment_118443841

Dusty old building has dust on things, who knew

end of the road · 09-01-2022 03:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443922#Comment_118443922

factually incorrect.

building with cultural and historical items which are being damaged due to ridiculous levels of particulates due to ridiculously high levels of pollution from vehicles which should not actually be in the city really.

cnocbui · 09-01-2022 03:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441668#Comment_118441668

You really don't have the inkling of a clue.

The 2021 budget had an allocation of "€1.3 billion for national, regional and local roads" and "€1.8 billion funding announced for sustainable transport, cycling, walking and greenways"

Contrast that with:

Tax take from motorists soars to over €5.4bn – McGrath

Published on: 27 February 2017" https://www.fiannafail.ie/blog/tax-take-from-motorists-soars-to-over-e5-4bn-mcgrath

As tax revenue has soared in recent times, it's likely a fair bit higher, particularly considering the recent rise in fuel prices, which must be swelling the coffers.

The Irish government gets 7% of the entire revenue take, from taxation of motorists, and it's not ploghed back into transport, it's a vital cash cow for funding general services like social welfare. In the past that tax take has been estimated to be 10%

"As much as €3bn could be lost to the Irish Exchequer as low-emission vehicles become the norm by 2030, according to industry experts. Huge amounts of revenue used to fund essential services are generated by vehicle registration tax, motor tax and fuel tax and could largely disappear as the petrol engine is slowly consigned to history.

Almost €5bn - or 7pc of government revenue - is generated through Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT), fuel tax, tolls, motor tax and Vat, it is estimated. As yet, there is no clear plan as to how this money can be replaced."

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/how-will-ireland-fund-essential-services-as-dirty-petrol-guzzlers-are-replaced-by-electric-cars-36094301.html

Here's a rather old look at Kildare CC revenue for road expenditure and it's budget spending:

"So the total road transport budget which KCC could have used was €42,489,746. Therefore €11,297,686 was to be used on other non road related expenditure." https://www.cartell.ie/2010/02/cartell-asks-where-does-our-motor-tax-go/

The shift to heavier EVs will degrade heavily trafficked roads more than for ISE vehicles and will likely lead to greater road maintainance requirements because vehicle weight and road damage is a 4th power relationship and isn't even remotely a linear relationship. Less tax from EV's but greater expenditure needed on road maintainance and infrastructer - charge points, power plants, transmission lines, sub stations, etc, etc.

Danzy · 09-01-2022 03:32PM

There is nothing wrong with green politics. Lots of it is necessary from an energy independence point of view.

On top of that the tech is more efficient cost wise in producing electricity so even investors who don't care about the environment are ploughing money in to renewable energy. The return is the only thing.

However what Germany did was criminal stupidity, without logic or planning and will deeply damage European economies for years to come. It will also damage Green politics and green energy.

There is a very big class divide in this as well. The well heeled are making hard decisions for the bottom half of society.

The constant challenge for the left, Green movements is that the working class outnumber them significantly.

That can lead to electoral wipe out.

cnocbui · 09-01-2022 03:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442437#Comment_118442437

That problem was created by the Green party.

"Green" policies are destroying this country

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